Interesting article in May/June Front Sight

[tanks]

On 5/26/2018 at 8:37 AM, xtian999 said:

...Perhaps this is part of the reason to reconsider power factor, since the 9mm is what most defence arms use. The .40 guns are cool and all, but they are really about gaming the existing pf system for advantage, instead of safely practicing and competing with defence-type arms and scenarios. 

 

USPSA is NOT about defense type scenarios. You have IDPA for that. Next you will ask us not to expose ourselves to targets, split the pie, retain mags if they are full etc, etc,  

 

Also, most competitive Production shooters are not using "defense-type" firearms either. I have yet see a duty rig holding a Tanfoglio or a CZ here in the USA.

[rishii]

Plus nascar changed the sport to draw in the wine and Brie crowd and pissed off their traditional fan base of beer drinkers  (me)

Ask them how worked out

 

[xtian999]

The author is asking to reconsider power factor in order to integrate shooters from military and law enforcement. If you don’t read and understand the article, your arguments will not be valid, germane, or pertinent. 

[tanks]

7 hours ago, xtian999 said:

The author is asking to reconsider power factor in order to integrate shooters from military and law enforcement. If you don’t read and understand the article, your arguments will not be valid, germane, or pertinent. 

 

Military and LEOs wanting to use their duty gun can shoot Production division. I don't see how the current rules stop them from doing that. Not to mention it is not that big of a demographic that is worth changing the rules for the Limited division. Heck of a lot more civilian gun owners are out there. Also, I don't think not being able to shoot Limited is what is stopping those that want to compete but rather it is lack of desire or the risk of competing and putting it out there for people to see. 

[rowdyb]

Make major major again.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, tanks said:

 

 Also, I don't think not being able to shoot Limited is what is stopping those that want to compete but rather it is lack of desire or the risk of competing and putting it out there for people to see. 

 

Lack of desire I can buy. I figure that a person who has the guts to serve in military or law enforcement is probably courageous enough to play a game they are not very good at. 

[IHAVEGAS]

On 5/13/2018 at 10:38 AM, Krag said:

On page 20 Cameron Hopkins seems to be recommending that USPSA drop MPF to 145 and do away with the .40 caliber requirement to claim MPF. His arguments are too extensive to list here but I think he's making a lot of sense.

 

Did anyone else have to start over on the article because they thought it might be a gag? 

[Krag]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Lack of desire I can buy. I figure that a person who has the guts to serve in military or law enforcement is probably courageous enough to play a game they are not very good at. 

 

While I know a number of LEOs who compete but have been told that the reason more don't is they feel the public sees them as "expert shooters" and if they don't do well it will damage this image.

[obsessiveshooter]

 
Lack of desire I can buy. I figure that a person who has the guts to serve in military or law enforcement is probably courageous enough to play a game they are not very good at. 

It takes courage to serve, but it takes humility to be below average at a sport in front of civilians who are assuming you will immediately be good at it.
It takes a lot of humility to push through the suck when you are learning USPSA. You have to enjoy the shooting for shooting's sake, and the learning process. It takes a while to get good enough for the match results to provide satisfaction.

It's silly to think that a disastrous rule change would suddenly open the floodgates of participation for LE and military. As if people who don't shoot our sport have ANY idea about the fine points of power factor scoring.

The change will never happen, it just gives bored shooters something to yak about on the internet. Maybe even an elaborate troll?




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[teros135]

19 minutes ago, Krag said:

 

While I know a number of LEOs who compete but have been told that the reason more don't is they feel the public sees them as "expert shooters" and if they don't do well it will damage this image.

 

Cops are expert shooters?  

[Krag]

3 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

Cops are expert shooters?  

 

According to the news media they are the only ones who are capable enough to possess firearms. We civilian gun owners are a danger to the general public.

[RangerTrace]

19 minutes ago, Krag said:

 

According to the news media they are the only ones who are capable enough to possess firearms. We civilian gun owners are a danger to the general public.

Well, for the most part, we have been vetted by in depth background checks, mental health checks and polygraphs.  But even "we" let one slip through the cracks every now and then.

 

I'm not sure how a thread on power factor drifted to Military and LE involvement in matches, but I can certainly shed some light on the LE part.  Shooting is expensive and cops don't make a ton of money.  I'm comfortable with my skill level.  I accept the fact that those who practice more than me will perform better at matches.  I shot my first 3gun match on Saturday.  I finished way down the list and below shooters that I routinely beat at pistol matches.  Did it sting, sure.  Am I going to give up 3gun, no.  I think it's gonna make me a better shooter at work.  

 

And then you think cops can't shoot, I have two words for you......Keith Garcia.  Bad to the Bone.

 

 

[Shadyscott999]

No.  This would obsolete 97% of limited guns and 99% of open guns.  If you were just starting USPSA it makes sense.  At this point in the game it's just nuts.  

 

[Yeti]

On 5/24/2018 at 11:20 AM, motosapiens said:

I'm glad he wrote that stuff, so I know to vote for someone else.

 

On 5/24/2018 at 11:28 AM, teros135 said:

I'm with Moto 

 

On 5/24/2018 at 11:29 AM, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Agreed.

Good to know what Cameron Hopkins thinks.  Vote for somebody else.

Maybe we can all get participation trophys?  

[Inkw8ll]

Even though I know this topic took a turn I thought I chime in as a police officer (NYPD). Shooting production (with service weapon) for the most part is out of the question. Some departments require specific ammo and while you could get away with shooting whatever you want if something goes wrong it's not worth the trouble. Our loads are too hot for production to be competitive, out trigger pulls are usually double digits and technically not allowed to modify your service weapon (not even to change the grips).

I'm new to the sport and have only shot 2 matches. Because of the above and other factors I decided I'll get a dedicated comp gun and I want to have fun (while be as competitive as possible). I chose to shoot limited minor and competitive went out the window with practical. All my handguns are 9mm and I like it that way. Of course I know I'm at a handicap with points and the fact I'm in NY having to shoot 10 rounds. Honestly a better fit for me would be production and I think production should still to 9mm minor. I also feel that since the majority of limited is major, minimum should be 40 major for that division.

I don't see why that can't be a compromise so the form factor is: production/carry optics 9mm minor and limited/open 40 major. Have a revolver class and I 1911 single stack 45 class.

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[teros135]

25 minutes ago, Inkw8ll said:

Even though I know this topic took a turn I thought I chime in as a police officer (NYPD). Shooting production (with service weapon) for the most part is out of the question. Some departments require specific ammo and while you could get away with shooting whatever you want if something goes wrong it's not worth the trouble. Our loads are too hot for production to be competitive, out trigger pulls are usually double digits and technically not allowed to modify your service weapon (not even to change the grips).

I'm new to the sport and have only shot 2 matches. Because of the above and other factors I decided I'll get a dedicated comp gun and I want to have fun (while be as competitive as possible). I chose to shoot limited minor and competitive went out the window with practical. All my handguns are 9mm and I like it that way. Of course I know I'm at a handicap with points and the fact I'm in NY having to shoot 10 rounds. Honestly a better fit for me would be production and I think production should still to 9mm minor. I also feel that since the majority of limited is major, minimum should be 40 major for that division.

I don't see why that can't be a compromise so the form factor is: production/carry optics 9mm minor and limited/open 40 major. Have a revolver class and I 1911 single stack 45 class.

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Let's see.  Production is already Minor only, regardless of caliber, so nobody is "disadvantaged" there.  You can shoot 40 in Limited if you want, and that's your Major.  (Those who wish to shoot Minor in Limited can, too.)  Unfortunately, most of the folks in Open already have guns that aren't .40 (although they're Major) and aren't going to want to "compromise" by converting  all their equipment to 40 cal.  We already have a Revolver division.  We already have Single Stack, in which you can shoot .45 if you want (or .40, or 9mm).  Lots of choices already.  Why change everything that already works?

[tanks]

7 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Lack of desire I can buy. I figure that a person who has the guts to serve in military or law enforcement is probably courageous enough to play a game they are not very good at. 

 

While there are very good LEO shooters around here, I have also seen many LEOs that have come once, got trounced by civilians and never came back. One even had bragged that he had gotten 98% on POST quals and didn't think a USPSA match was going to be much of a challenge for him. I'll give it to him that he was accurate, but probably the slowest shooter there. He never showed up again. I also know of LEOs that have shown up got trounced and then I saw them at TPC for a 3 day Handgun Mastery course in order to improve. So, I think it has to do with ego more than anything else.

[emjbe]

On 5/24/2018 at 5:06 PM, motosapiens said:

 

i think that's the idea, so that old people and sissies and pre-teen girls and 3-gunners (yeah, i know, lots of overlap in these categories) can score major without having to be able to actually *handle* major pf recoil, and the rest of us have to buy new guns.

 

I've been called old people, sissy, and 3-gunner ... and you still had me laughing out loud with that one.  

[IHAVEGAS]

10 minutes ago, tanks said:

 

I'll give it to him that he was accurate, but probably the slowest shooter there.

 

I shot on a squad with a couple navy seals once. They were not the slowest shooters there but they were very deliberate & very accurate. I do not know if it reflects intent in training or if perhaps it just reflects that rapid fire pistol shooting is a really low priority in the big picture. 

 

While I had the chance I asked them if it was true that "choking out" people was a thing (mentioned In Chris Kyle's book), yep, they said that it happens. 

[Steve RA]

Most of the LEs that I saw either watch a match and never came back or tried it once and never returned.  However, a few were or became very good after awhile.  Think they weren't terribly different than non-LEs who watched or tried once and never came back.

 

Just takes a certain personality to stick with it.

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

I'm not sure how a thread on power factor drifted to Military and LE involvement in matches, but I can certainly shed some light on the LE part.  Shooting is expensive and cops don't make a ton of money.  

 

I know alot of competitive people that make less than the average cop (average salary is $61k with good benefits and accelerated retirement). Shooting is pretty cheap compared to racing motorcycles or even bicycles. Now you can *make* it expensive, with lots of travel and fancy guns, but you can be entirely competitive at the local level for less than most people waste eating out and on fast food.

 

For sure almost every cop in my agency is paid more than me (i'm the lowly data/computer guy), but I can still afford $200/month or so for ammo and match fees.

[Inkw8ll]

Most military and law enforcement are slow purposely. That's just training.

 
Let's see.  Production is already Minor only, regardless of caliber, so nobody is "disadvantaged" there.  You can shoot 40 in Limited if you want, and that's your Major.  (Those who wish to shoot Minor in Limited can, too.)  Unfortunately, most of the folks in Open already have guns that aren't .40 (although they're Major) and aren't going to want to "compromise" by converting  all their equipment to 40 cal.  We already have a Revolver division.  We already have Single Stack, in which you can shoot .45 if you want (or .40, or 9mm).  Lots of choices already.  Why change everything that already works?

It just doesn't make sense to me that your score differently in the same division. But it also doesn't make sense to me to limit round count in "competition" because of laws. There's an exemption for carrying if going to the range or gunsmith, there should be one for competition (or get rid of the stupid law).

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[sfinney]

6 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Well, for the most part, we have been vetted by in depth background checks, mental health checks and polygraphs.  But even "we" let one slip through the cracks every now and then.

 

I'm not sure how a thread on power factor drifted to Military and LE involvement in matches, but I can certainly shed some light on the LE part.  Shooting is expensive and cops don't make a ton of money.  I'm comfortable with my skill level.  I accept the fact that those who practice more than me will perform better at matches.  I shot my first 3gun match on Saturday.  I finished way down the list and below shooters that I routinely beat at pistol matches.  Did it sting, sure.  Am I going to give up 3gun, no.  I think it's gonna make me a better shooter at work.  

 

And then you think cops can't shoot, I have two words for you......Keith Garcia.  Bad to the Bone.

 

 

Obviously there are many good great cop shooters who are LE,  yourself included. My father in-law (retired Dallas Sheriff) is was a decent shooter. I think though the public expects LE to be better shooters than most are, or think they are. I shoot with an FBI agent neighbor, occasionally at the local range, but have been unsuccessful in getting him to a match.... he is safe, and can surely pass a qualification. But not anywhere near a good C, or B shooter for shooting points or calling shots. Just because cops carry guns everyday does not mean they can (or like to) shoot. Or have a knack for it.

 

Some decide to get better after their first few matches and come back motivated, and some just go away (intimidated or embarrassed, or not interested)... in probably the same ratio as most new shooters. 

[pjb45]

4 hours ago, Shadyscott999 said:

No.  This would obsolete 97% of limited guns and 99% of open guns.  If you were just starting USPSA it makes sense.  At this point in the game it's just nuts.  

 

 

"This is the way we have always done it.  There is no reason to change!"

 

I have heard this refrain in over 35 hospitals where I was retained to turn them around so they would not go bankrupt. 

 

If the change would result in a better situation then change is warranted.  Nothing wrong with becoming obsolete if the replacement is better.

 

'Change for the sake of change is anarchy'

 

I was neither persuaded by the author's premise nor the counter arguments.

 

I am ex-military and have many friends that are still LEOs.  Some are C, B and GMs.  Generalizations about this subcategory are worthless. 

[sfinney]

When they made Open and Limited Divisions, it was to protect single stack .45s and Para framed hicaps non-comped non-scoped guns, and give them a place to play. Very quickly .45 was obsolete, and due to .40 min for major, hicap .40s ruled the Limited Division for capacity.  They later made Production to give the 9mm guns a place to play without feeling penalized.... and level set the equipment war by making it 10 round limit. Now Carry optics is out, and many are fixing up their maxed out heavy $2K steel Production guns to run C.O., instead of an M&P or Glock.  PCC is all about highly tuned $2K AR and MPX platform guns, in many cases not resembling anything like a 9mm duty or hunting carbine most would carry in their trunk or plink with. 

 

Guess my point is everything has been an equipment war since some guys started shooting hi-powers instead of 1911s...  or added comps to their .45s. . Red Dots? Mind blown.

So if they change the min caliber for Major, and make 9mm viable in Limited....   would it be that big a change in the scope of past changes, and divisions added?  Sure, there would be a lot of 9mm Limited guns getting sold/built.... but we have proven for decades people will spend to have the next best thing, and do it over and over.

 

Having said that, in full disclosure, my Limited gun is a 9mm