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[Steppenwolf]

v1911:

"It's a game."

If that is true, per your assertion, then it follows that people play games to win. That means there is competition. Yet, per IDPA's own survey of members, the majority of members claim that they participate for "defensive" reasons (not competitive). The change to 1 second per point down changes the game (for undisclosed reason(s)). If you change the rules of a game then it is not the same game anymore.

Logic exposes the truth. IDPA needs to clarify its purpose or admit the truth (if your claim "it's a game" is true). The organization should change its name from International "Defensive" Pistol Association to the International Accurate Shooting Game Association.

I've seen the same phenomenon in other games over the years (chess clubs, sporting clubs, etc.). However, in those clubs the rules of the game are not changed because people cannot handle competition. The scoring change will not work as intended (slower, but "more accurate" shooters will still lose to faster and "accurate enough" shooters). The people that do not practice to get better nor learn to deal with competitiveness will still get beat. More rules changes will follow.

They should drop the timer and scoring. Just have a start buzzer, "rounds on target" (hit a target anywhere = a hit), and an overall time limit (you get up to two minutes to shoot the stage). Everyone gets a ribbon for participating.

 

 

 

[B_RAD]

I have to agree with the last two post. 

 

They say its a game but then try to say/imply it's defensive depending on which point they're trying to make or what new rule they're trying to justify. 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by B_RAD

[Brooke]

I have argued in other threads that the rules changes are good, BUT in the scoring case I disagree. More accuracy emphasis just slows down the game for most shooters who are Novice, Marksman, or Sharpshooter classified. Masters already are presumably fast and accurate so it should not have impact on them.

I see repeatedly that most IDPA shooters are not competing, but instead just practicing defensive skills. That's a load of manure. They are just excusing their lack of competitive ability by claiming they are not competing. What skill is the most important for self defense? I am not saying accuracy is not important, but the first shot is going to be very important if a normal criminal is threatening you. The person who shoots first puts the other in a defensive position of needing to find cover or fire some wild shoot immediately before he is ready. Fast is just as important as accurate and in MHO more important. That goes would if you fire first and hit the threat anywhere even in the hand.

I hate the scoring change I like the others.  

[Jeff O]

I tracked the scoring at all IDPA matches I shot for the last four months of the year. The new rule would have made almost NO difference in the standings ! The top guys will still be the top guys.

"Speed is great, accuracy is everything"    Wyatt Earp

Edited January 26, 2017 by Jeff O

[DukeEB]

The scoring change has helped me a bit in my last few short matches.  I've always been more accurate than fast from personal priority, and it did help me.  the top guys are still the top guys though.

[IronArcher]

We played around shooting the classifier today.
Seeing how the penalties add up, most of us started being "careful"... no, I'm no master (yet), but it certainly did not feel like anything resembling defensive shooting.... actually DID feel like bullseye with reloads.
Simply not as much fun.
YMMV.


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[rowdyb]

living in the lungs, if not the heart of idpa land (little rock versus berryville) i can tell you that in 3 matches at three different clubs under the new rules who wins hasn't changed but the top ten sure has! a lot of names who fit the exact description of "maybe not that fast but sure are accurate" are now ahead of the "he's pretty fast but kinda inaccurate" guys.

 

i am on record as not being a fan of the 1s/1pd rule. but after now having shot a match with the new rules, i'll accept that rule because i'm really enjoying the fault lines and reloads. for me, those two rule changes have sped up the game more than the new points down has slowed it down. for me and my experience/skill level.

[SWprotected]

I don't have a problem with the new rules, if they would leave them alone. I can learn to play any game as long as I know the rules.

[IronArcher]

Ironically, the reload rules caused a few mess ups.
There were several who were reloading on the move instead of from cover on stage 3.
For most it was just a brain fart, others (who probably having been following as closely) said things like "I thought it was 'reload anywhere'".


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[Sorpe]

I have shot two matches under the new rules and thoroughly enjoyed them. I'm with rowdyb that the fault lines and reload rules make up for any issues with the one second rule although I don't mind that one either. I've always been inclined more toward accuracy.

 

In discussing the effect of the rule changes, you really can't extrapolate by applying the one point equals one second rule to matches shot under the old rules. People's approach to the match changes when they know that a point now costs them double. The mindset is different. As IronArcher said about playing around shooting the classifier, people get "careful" which leads to different results. I do believe, as it is what I've seen so far, that the top guys remain the top guys while the middle guys get sorted differently. As someone said (can't remember if it was here or some other forum), the bottom guys just remain as bewildered as ever. 

[B_RAD]

I've shot two monthly matches in the last two weeks. Neither club used the new rules.  They're still holding on for hope that fault lines are gonna go away. 

 

If they don't use them next match, I'll quit shooting there.  

 

they keep saying "until I have a hard copy of the rules in my hand, were not using fault lines". 

 

 

[Tarkeg]

4 hours ago, B_RAD said:

I've shot two monthly matches in the last two weeks. Neither club used the new rules.  They're still holding on for hope that fault lines are gonna go away. 

 

If they don't use them next match, I'll quit shooting there.  

 

they keep saying "until I have a hard copy of the rules in my hand, were not using fault lines". 

 

 

 

They need to read the hard copy of the rulebook they already have. It states that the rulebook posted on IDPA.COM is the most current, and is the one to be used.

 

[robport]

I've now shot and run the clock on two matches under the new rules.

 

The problem I see with the 1 second per point rule is two fold:  From the competitor perspective, it's almost impossible to come back from a bad stage in a sanctioned match, if you make a mistake.  With the 1/2 second, you had a chance.  From a SO perspective, I'm having people that never paid much attention before, arguing over every call.

 

The reload rules are great.  No problem with those yet.

 

I don't like the fault lines.  During the first match, they were set like the diagrams in the early rules and people were just about falling while shooting one side of an array.  As a result, the club made the match director make them more "generous".  We aren't shooting from cover for a good portion of the targets.  I don't have a problem with it as a competitor, but as an SO, I'm afraid someone is going to get hurt because of them.   In both cases, "height challenged" people had to switch gun hands and shoot with either their strong or weak hand because they couldn't reach one of the targets.  In other words, the course of fire was different for people with different physical builds.  I didn't see that as fair.

[rowdyb]

sounds like your stage designers are still using the old paradigm for how they think of making a stage challenging. a club had a first match like that too here. once they figured out you have to do it, place fault lines, barriers and targets differently their match flowed better and everyone was happier.

 

problems with fault lines at a match are purely a stage design and/or building problem, not a rule problem in my opinion and experience. when i built our match I put down walls and barricades where i wanted them. then i put down target stands where i thought they'd be good. then i put down fault lines. then i double checked target stands and moved and necessary. making things visible only where i wanted them to be, making the shots equitable (i'm only 5'7" so i feel for shorter shooters). change your mindset and process or you'll be unhappy trying to make stages work with fault lines.

 

we've came to our own conclussion that pvc pipe painted bright orange is the best fault line. drill holes in it to stake it down. easy and light weight to have 3' sections. easy to stand on. easy call to see if you're touching the ground on the other side. rounded edge and bright color seem to be less of a trip hazard potential compared to larger, lighter colored, square edged fault lines made from wood or metal.

 

SO's here love the easier fault line call versus the cover call. SO's here are getting very good at detecting a non legal idpa reload. SO's here are paying more attention to calling close hits as it does make a big deal, still with the benefit of the doubt going to the shooter.

 

two more months in and i bet the growing pains will be much much less.

Edited January 30, 2017 by rowdyb

[rowdyb]

14 hours ago, B_RAD said:

I've shot two monthly matches in the last two weeks. Neither club used the new rules.  They're still holding on for hope that fault lines are gonna go away. 

 

If they don't use them next match, I'll quit shooting there.  

 

they keep saying "until I have a hard copy of the rules in my hand, were not using fault lines". 

 

 

hit Print, select printer, wait 5 minutes, take hard copy to match. hahahahaha

[B_RAD]

7 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

hit Print, select printer, wait 5 minutes, take hard copy to match. hahahahaha

I'm going to do that.  

 

Just figured they'd already done it. 

 

It's been pretty amazing to see these clubs hold on to hope for no fault lines. 

 

 

I SO'd squads at both matches.  How many cover calls did I make?!  None!  Had a bystander tell me I should have called cover on a shooter. I told him there's not such thing as cover calls anymore.  You're either faulting or not.  Since I see no fault line, there was no fault.  The curmudgeon old IDPA "its self defense training" guys don't like that!  Ha ha.  

 

Edited January 30, 2017 by B_RAD

[rowdyb]

yep, the people who hold most to the notion that idpa is somehow real life, tactical training dislike fault lines most in my experience. often that idea is why they started shooting idpa in the first place when you talk to them. they want real life, ccw simulations in their shooting game.

 

it's a completely different argument than about fault lines, the dual nature of the sport. though when i take the time to talk to them, most of them could accept it and they are just grousing a bit because they're sick and tired of the rules changing and take it out on the fault lines. if you've been shooting idpa since say 2011 you've seen like 4 different rule books, each with substantial changes to shooting, stage design and equipment.

 

stability would go a long way to making more people happy. and time heals all wounds.

[narwhal]

I don't mind the new rules, been shooting idpa on and off since 2010 or so.  Granted I'm a low skill high SS.  I like the fault lines.  The scoring doesn't seem to have much effect on who is winning matches, at least at the clubs I've shot at.

[MemphisMechanic]

3 hours ago, robport said:

We aren't shooting from cover for a good portion of the targets.

And that's a great thing. There's no reason to put something into a sport that doesn't even happen in the real life shootings IDPA may or may not have been designed to simulate.

 

Find me a robbery or similar defensive shooting on video somewhere - or even a written account - where someone used cover.

 

If you're holed up in your home and bad guys are outside the bedroom it's great to be familiar with the use of concealment (drywall isn't gonna stop a bullet)... but IDPAs cover mindset has never made much sense to me:

 

If you're 98% more likely to be running, screaming, and rapid-firing one handed while moving in a real life scenario... why are the "this needs to be like a real life shooting" guys arguing for cover and patient, meticulous, two handed shooting from cover?

 

Just playing devil's advocate.

Edited January 30, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[waktasz]

58 minutes ago, narwhal said:

I don't mind the new rules, been shooting idpa on and off since 2010 or so.  Granted I'm a low skill high SS.  I like the fault lines.  The scoring doesn't seem to have much effect on who is winning matches, at least at the clubs I've shot at.

 

Exactly. It doesn't affect match placement at all, it just makes them less fun to shoot...so why bother?

[robport]

I don't necessarily disagree, but IDPA claims cover as one of its big virtues and stresses it in all its documentation.  I had a bunch of people ask me the other night, "you mean I can stand here in the open and shoot that target, then have to almost stand on my head to get that other one?"  As long as you don't touch ground on the other side of the line, it's OK.  I'm just afraid someone is going to get hurt, especially on the concrete floor we have.

[IronArcher]

Then complain to the MD about his placement of fault lines.

As to the above, I agree, if all it does is make the sport equally less fun for everyone, why do it?

We shot the Classifier the other day (unofficial). Looking at the results, I took 2nd. With .5 seconds per point, I would have come in first.
I know I can slow down a bit and get all the hits perfect.... just like we did in bullseye.


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[v1911]

The 1sec per point didn't phase me a bit. It's the damn head shots that kill me. And generally speaking, they aren't a problem. But when you have only head shots available or don't want to risk hitting a pesky NT, it takes a toll on my overall time.

 

My problem has never been accuracy but speed. Oddly enough, with the new rules, I find myself trying to go faster. YMMV. 

[IronArcher]

Actually, I can see shooting faster... and throwing some "insurance rounds" down range.
I noticed in Limited rounds (classifier), THAT is where I feel I need to slow down..... not fun.


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[Tokarev]

Anyone else receive the latest Tactical Journal? Bill Wilson writes a bit about why he thought the new rules were needed. But, unless I somehow missed it, he makes no mention of the scoring changes.

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