Doubles?

[walter hornby]

I had a few people ask me to relook at a target at the match. everyone was polite and when i put my overlay on the target to show them that is was only one hole they all said thank you and we carried on. i had one that when i came back to look at it i could see that the hole was big and when i put my over lay on it, it was very clear that is was a double. fortunately for the shooter he had spaced his shot by a millimeter or two

[Sin-ster]

I've seen (shot) one double that should have been called, and ended up screwing me.

Plugged a barrel (hard cover) and tore a ragged hole in the target. Well on my way out of the position, I rattled off a make-up and raked it into the D-zone, calling it right around where I figured the barrel hit was.

Downrange after ULSC, sure enough there's a vicious hole where my measly jacketed 124 grain went haywire through the barrel, and at the VERY edge, a clear and perfectly round grease ring. "Alpha-Mike", which I barely protested because it was a practice match.

Interested, I pushed the jagged cardboard back into place from the rear of the target (screw it-- give me a second Mike for all I care) and sure enough, flagrantly another round had passed through that same hole.

Make up a miss with a Delta, get dinged anyway AND eat the extra .3 for the make up...

I also saw one from another competitor on a target that had not been pasted. There were .45 holes in it and he was shooting .355 through an Open gun. Suffice it to say, the dude does NOT shoot misses, was adamant that he had not missed, and was so close to the target that it made no sense at all. I wasn't RO, but I walked over and suggestively handed him my overlays. Indeed, there was a TINY little dimple in one of the .45 holes where a .355 had passed through it.

In regards to shooting them on clean paper without other holes causing issues-- you're probably 1,000,000 times more likely to do it by accident than trying or on a bet.

[beltjones]

I find it amusing that people keep talking about how the shooters who routinely ask for doubles will get outed for having low integrity, but yet no one will out them.

So they continue to place higher than they should (I imagine), they probably get more sponsorships than shooters with integrity, and they pick up better prizes off the prize table.

So if no one will name names, how is their lack integrity hurting them exactly? Heck, ROs from stage to stage don't even get told that so-and-so has asked for two doubles already, so where is the downside?

[MarkCO]

I find it amusing that people keep talking about how the shooters who routinely ask for doubles will get outed for having low integrity, but yet no one will out them.

So they continue to place higher than they should (I imagine), they probably get more sponsorships than shooters with integrity, and they pick up better prizes off the prize table.

So if no one will name names, how is their lack integrity hurting them exactly? Heck, ROs from stage to stage don't even get told that so-and-so has asked for two doubles already, so where is the downside?

Amusing or not, pretty sure it would be against Brian's rules to name names herein. If a company looking to sponsor a top shooter does not care enough to check up, then shame on them. Sponsorship is a two way street, can hurt or help. I make to sure to let companies know what I think of their sponsored shooters, good or bad.

[latech15]

I understand your point of contention here, that shooters should own what they shoot and that RO's should call what they see, but I really don't understand how it is do far fetched to have two hits in the same place. After all, we practice for hours on end watching sights, trigger prep, follow through, we tailor our loads to give us flat shooting guns and quick follow up shots, and perhaps the largest if all reasons - we are aiming at the same spot.

I'm not saying that I could go out and put two shots through the same hole, but I'm saying that it isn't like finding unicorn tears when someone actually succeeds in doing what they were trying to do - get two hits in the a zone.

If they are both there, then they are, but I am just as disgusted with people acting like a double, or two very close hits shouldn't be.at least checked with an overlay.

[a matt]

Part of it is it seems to be the same people call they shot another double. 2 stages in a row. Holding the match up. because depending on the RO they might get the call they want. Definatly cheating to me.

[SteelDown]

My favorite was the Nationals competitor who had a single D hit on a 20 yd. swinging target claiming it was a double. Unfortuantely the overlay said otherwise.

[remoandiris]

So if no one will name names, how is their lack integrity hurting them exactly? Heck, ROs from stage to stage don't even get told that so-and-so has asked for two doubles already, so where is the downside?

They get a reputation amongst ROs and matches. A top shooter tanked a stage I RO'd, then had a hissy fit. I never named the shooter, but an RO a few stages away said must have been so-and-so. I said yes. Surprised me the RO could pick the person out. That is how I know the shooter already has a bad reputation. You can be sure the next time that shooter is on my stage, they will not bully me or another RO into a call that isn't there. BTW, dropping tons of f-bombs doesn't help a reputation either.

Edited September 21, 2012 by remoandiris

[mhop]

I understand your point of contention here, that shooters should own what they shoot and that RO's should call what they see, but I really don't understand how it is do far fetched to have two hits in the same place. After all, we practice for hours on end watching sights, trigger prep, follow through, we tailor our loads to give us flat shooting guns and quick follow up shots, and perhaps the largest if all reasons - we are aiming at the same spot.

I'm not saying that I could go out and put two shots through the same hole, but I'm saying that it isn't like finding unicorn tears when someone actually succeeds in doing what they were trying to do - get two hits in the a zone.

If they are both there, then they are, but I am just as disgusted with people acting like a double, or two very close hits shouldn't be.at least checked with an overlay.

Really 2 hits in the A zone isn't anywhere close to 2 bullets going through the same hole. We aren't talking about figure 8's we are talking about 1 hit and a miss(or a so called perfect double) espically when you had 1 second first 2 shots on a 15 yard classic target and then a strong hand only shot while holding up an activator.

[sperman]

As a shooter, it can be annoying to see a competitor try and earn a hit that isn't there.

As an RO, I'll put an overlay on any target the competitor asks me to, and make my call based on what I see. His reputation, or reaction to that call won't influence my call on that target, or on any in the future. If he would like to ask the CRO or RM to double check my call, that's OK too. My only concern is that the competitor get the score he earned. I've had RM's confirm my calls, and reverse my calls. As long as the competitor gets the correct score, that's all I care about.

IMO, too many people let their ego get in the way of doing the right thing, both while holding the gun, and while holding the timer.

[gino_aki]

I've actually seen a guy in our club shoot a double twice...has to do with the way the sun hits the range in the morning when we're shooting. Both times I was the RO and was able to see everything from my position: his gun and the target. I'm guessing the sun's angle was perfect both times so that the reflection off the bullet showed it as a streak going towards the target and the holes in the target were back-lit. He fired his first shot, a bright spot appears on the target, he fires his second and I see the streak leave his muzzle and go to what appears to be the exact same place, he hesitates because he doesn't see the second bright spot and fires a third shot then finishes the stage (one position speed shoot). I score him two alphas (you could just barely tell the hole was oval) and he says "but that second shot is a charlie" and I tell him he didn't need the third shot, and tell him what I saw. Second time was basically the same thing. He's pretty accurate anyway and now I think he really trusts what his vision is telling him about shot placement.

[ktm300]

A perfect double gets scored as a miss by me as I can only call what I see. I have seen a few that were pretty darn close to perfect but there were two outlines and I called what I saw. I don't care if it's a friend, the best shooter in the world, or someone I think is a PITA they get the same call.

I have been lucky enought to shoot with Cliff at two matches and that story is no supprise to me. A stand up guy and a great shooter for sure.

[Powder Finger]

no input just story....

long ago at a match with quite a few top national shooters on a Virginia count stage

(this is how long ago it was it was called limited comstock then)

anyhow one of the top guys claimed a double on a target (off kilter bullet as i remember)

some arguing back and forth so finally the RO goes O.K. you win, the proceeded to score extra shots/hit for every bullet hole

that looked the same. And that's what you call instant karma.

[herky]

Almost all doubles are perfect singles.

[justaute]

First, BIG kudos to Cliff. Can't say anything more than what has been said.

I would welcome the "opportunity" to be stared down -- I would just walk away with an obvious smirk. I want to see them more mad. Just can't stand people who have no integrity and turn this sort-a-sport into a farce.

That competitor stared me down for close to 10 minutes before he finally walked off the stage obviously angry and me for HIS miss.

Edited September 22, 2012 by justaute

[GrumpyOne]

While I have never asked for a double, nor have I been given one, I have managed to telescope arrows, twice, which is also considered as rare as unicorn tears. Never have been able to do it on demand, but it can happen. While I would say 99% of supposed doubles are actually abcd/m, it would behoove us to verify that it is indeed that, as it is possible.

As for someone asking for a double, let them ask....its the RO's job to score the target, and if there is a dispute, take it up the chain....but don't be bullied into giving something that wasn't earned.

[Neomet]

The story about Cliff doesn't surprise me at all. I've shot with him a couple times and hung out with him at the airport after a match. Class act all the way.

I don't think just because a shooter can't repeat a double doesn't mean it didn't happen. It can be a random event, just like me bumping into Bill Gates at the local Mac store. I just don't think it happens every time I go to the Mac store. In five years I've had one double called for me. Another competitor pointed it out to the RO.

While I couldn't care less about any improved score from these shenanigans, in descending level of annoyance here is what I don't like about chronic doublers.

1. You slow everything down. If you are concentrated in a squad (it happens) the squad behind you pays the price as well. It is amazingly annoying.

2 If you are a big dog and trying to use your status to up your score your are a bully. Even if you still wind up with just an Alpha Mike you are a still bully. Stop it.

3. If you are gaming it on the "If I complain every time I will at least get some" school of thought you are not the kind of person I want to shoot with. You are a cheat.

4. If you think you are too good/the target was to easy to have missed the target get over yourself. Rob once said that if he misses anything it is usually less than 7 yards away.

[Nik Habicht]

As a shooter, it can be annoying to see a competitor try and earn a hit that isn't there.

As an RO, I'll put an overlay on any target the competitor asks me to, and make my call based on what I see. His reputation, or reaction to that call won't influence my call on that target, or on any in the future. If he would like to ask the CRO or RM to double check my call, that's OK too. My only concern is that the competitor get the score he earned. I've had RM's confirm my calls, and reverse my calls. As long as the competitor gets the correct score, that's all I care about.

IMO, too many people let their ego get in the way of doing the right thing, both while holding the gun, and while holding the timer.

I don't even wait to be asked for an overlay. Any target with insufficient scoring hits, will see me verifying that the holes are singles with an overlay. Points matter -- and I want to be certain that the competitor gets the score recorded that he shot -- no more, no less....

[Coach]

Perhaps when we "protect people" for the good of the sport we are doing a disservice in the long run. Perhaps if a super squad member was outed for requesting 3 doubles in a single match that BS would stop. Perhaps if their actions were their only protection, and not the wall of silence that everyone else throws up for the good of the sport perhaps they would make better decisions. There are a lot of issues such as "perfect doubles" that get handled with kid gloves. I think that contributes to the problem in the long run.

[sperman]

I recently learned of another shooting forum that doesn't have the same rules as this one. I bet they wouldn't have any problems naming names. PM me if you want more details.

[remoandiris]

I don't even wait to be asked for an overlay. Any target with insufficient scoring hits, will see me verifying that the holes are singles with an overlay.

Very good procedure. I will start doing it. Shows the shooter you are proactive.

[Nik Habicht]

Perhaps when we "protect people" for the good of the sport we are doing a disservice in the long run. Perhaps if a super squad member was outed for requesting 3 doubles in a single match that BS would stop. Perhaps if their actions were their only protection, and not the wall of silence that everyone else throws up for the good of the sport perhaps they would make better decisions. There are a lot of issues such as "perfect doubles" that get handled with kid gloves. I think that contributes to the problem in the long run.

Then I might have to start asking for an overlay on every target that has less than 2 alphas on it. Shooters are entitled to the score they shot. They can certainly ask for an overlay -- for a hole that looks suspect to them -- after all they can't touch the target and use their own overlay. I don't see that it's a problem to get ROs to score with absolute certainty -- if the RO is proactive and overlays hits on targets with an insufficient number of holes, and overlays hits close to the line, a lot of the issues go away. And frankly, overlaying one hole per stage every other shooter doesn't slow me down...

[kevin c]

That reminds me. When I first got into this game I was at a major match and one of the ROs told me they had a Master shoot the stage and called it a double. The RO said nope Alpha Mike. The shooter said I'm a Master I don't miss

So tempting (but unfortunately so unprofessional) to have said: "So, that means you're not really a Master?...

A perfect double gets scored as a miss...

That's basically what it boils down to, if the shooter claims two in one hole: "sorry that you were that good, but that unlucky - if I can't see it, I can't call it".

Edited September 23, 2012 by kevin c

[Sin-ster]

Then I might have to start asking for an overlay on every target that has less than 2 alphas on it. Shooters are entitled to the score they shot. They can certainly ask for an overlay -- for a hole that looks suspect to them -- after all they can't touch the target and use their own overlay. I don't see that it's a problem to get ROs to score with absolute certainty -- if the RO is proactive and overlays hits on targets with an insufficient number of holes, and overlays hits close to the line, a lot of the issues go away. And frankly, overlaying one hole per stage every other shooter doesn't slow me down...

You need to RO me on every stage I ever shoot.

[deacon12224]

I have never understood why some ROs think that they have to wait to be asked to pull out their overlays. My job is to be 100% sure of every scoring call before I make it, not to be pretty sure, make a bad call and then be asked to pull out an overlay. If there is ANY doubt in my mind about a call, I will always pull out an overlay and be 100% sure before I open my mouth. If the RO is sure of his call before he opens his mouth, he will get a lot less crap from the shooters. If the shooter doesn't agree, pull the target, call the RM and move on. Pulling targets is really a lot faster than arguing with a competitor about the call. Cache some targets and a staple gun out on the stage and pull the targets. It never bothers me in the least to pull a target and get a competitor out of my hair (if I had hair).

Edited September 25, 2012 by deacon12224