deacon12224

Sounds like it is an illegal stage if it was a level 2 or higher match. 2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation.

I have never understood the whole "act like a statue" or the "hands on top of your head" thing. Just walk around in front of the shooter and chat for a second while the popper or target gets taken care of. Nobody is going to draw on you if you are standing two feet in front of them talking to them. I recall a 3 gun match where the wind was so bad, we didn't even bother setting the steel until we had the shooter loaded and ready to go because the wind would blow the steel down before we could get them loaded and started.

I know this is an old thread, but did the Front Sight article mentioned here ever get published? I feel like I saw it but can't find it now. Seems like the whole "unless otherwise specified" thing has yet to be resolved.

From the Atlanta 3 Gun Facebook page: From the man Erik, who designs all our stages. A quick hint at Stage Profiles for the Remington Versamax Challenge - hopefully this will hold y'all over till all of the stages are published. Bay 1 13 Rounds Bay 2 12 Rounds Bay 8 24 Rounds Bay 9 19 Rounds Bay 9.5 25 Rounds Bay 10 16 Rounds Bay 13 31 Rounds Bay 14 27 rounds Bay 15 26 Rounds Bay 16 20 Rounds Bay 17 29 Rounds Bay 18 19 Rounds Bay 19 16 Rounds Bay 20 19 Rounds 260 rounds Bird, 16 Rounds Buck and 20 Rounds Slug - 296 total

If I am reading this right, a shotgun in the factory division can't have a tube that holds more than 8 rounds. Is that the way you read it ? 7.3.4.9 Shotgun in Factory Division SHALL NOT hold more than eight (8) shells in the magazine total or start a stage with more than nine (9) shells total in the shotgun. (Rule 3.7)

Clearly the NROI has to clarify the definition of loading and reloading. I noticed that the original definition of "reloading" in the proposed 2014 rule changes read as follows: Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the competitor is ready to engage targets again. Apparently, this was changed before the rulebook was finalized. Not sure what the reason was for the change.

I shoot that ammo all the time. Never had any problem making major out of a Glock 35. Power factor usually in the 170 - 176 range. I have shot it in hot and cold weather from Georgia to Utah. No worries.

If someone is so blatant as to actually mess with the times shown on the timer, there is no way of knowing how the targets were actually scored. If you want to cheat as an RO, there are a number of ways to do it. Scoring targets, especially behind a shooter, has all sorts of possibities for cheating. That is one of the reasons that as a CRO, I will almost never allow scoring behind on any stage that I run. Truth be told, we have to rely on integrity in our staff to some degree no matter what rule changes or procedures may come out of this. Dishonest people will always find a way to cheat. Cheating by officials in all sports has probably been going on since the first caveman decided to have a woman throwing contest. (I am not saying the people involved here are dishonest or cavemen since we don't have a ruling from NROI yet)

No one is advocating disregard for the rules. Merely correcting a situation before the buzzer in the hopes of teaching a new guy at his first match. Have you never seen the RO correct a situation before the buzzer. I have, and it has been me a few times that was corrected, forgot my ears, forgot my glasses.. It was greatly appreciated and I learned from it. As most of us here i have had my DQ for an AD, not a problem.If you would rather DQ the guy first time up then do so, that would be the call by the rules. If I were in the situation I would correct the situation because I let it happen as the RO. Actually, you are advocating disregarding the rules. You just said the call by the rules is a DQ, but you would not do that. Hence, disregard. If you think new shooters, however you define that, should have a different set of safety rules, you should contact headquarters and see if we can get a change to the rulebook. Until then, we don't get to decide what rules we like.

I guess that I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that there are people who would intentionally disregard safety rules. A bullet from a first time shooter's gun can kill you just as easily as a bullet from a GM's gun. USPSA has an outstanding safety record exactly because of the very specific safety rules that we operate under. You cannot compare what we do to basketball, baseball, or any other sport. We use guns. Things designed to kill people. This game requires big boy pants. There cannot be any leeway in enforcing safety rules. Period. DQ the shooter, explain what he did wrong, and invite him to the next match.

That's the way I interpret the rules and the NROI ruling. If your hips aren't at least perpendicular to the back berm, you better not expose the trigger. I really hate stages that have an uprange start, with a target right on the 180. (I haven't seen the stage in question, but I assume that is the case.) Yes, we as shooters should have the skills necessary to safely draw the pistol on this type of stage, but it is just asking for guys to break the 180. Breaking the 180 is a bad thing, right? That's why people no longer get to shoot if they do it. So why setup stages that significantly increase the chances of it happening? The official ruling says nothing about hips being perpendicular or 90 degrees. It says muzzle line of holster less than 90 from median intercept. If someone can rotate such that the muzzle line of their holster doesn't break 180, they're in compliance with the rule as written regardless of their hip position. Clearly, the rule talks about muzzle line of the holster and not the hips or body. I think most ROs are taught to watch the hips because it would be pretty hard to get the holster around without rotating your hips. Conversely, if you have an Open or Limited rig that has the holster situated In an appendix carry position, you may have to rotate your hips far past 90 degrees to get the muzzle line past the 90 degree mark.

I would say that you probably are early on that draw. I can't really see if you have access to the trigger guard in the shot, but assuming that you do, probably should have been stopped. That being said, this can be a hard call to make especially if you turn into your holster. That can obscure the RO's vision of the holster.

As has been explained to me in multiple RO seminars and by a reading of the NROI ruling, when facing up range, until your body turns 90 degrees so that you are now facing the 180, the trigger cannot be exposed at all. From the angle of the picture, I can't tell if the trigger is exposed. If the trigger is exposed in that picture, DQ.

See the following NROI ruling from 2008: 11/11/08 Updated: 11/18/08 Effective: 11/18/08 Rule Number: 10.5.16 Applies to: Pistol Ruling Authority: John Amidon Status: Released Question: The glossary in Appendix A3 gives the definition of facing uprange as "face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parrell to the 90-degree median intercept of the back-stop. so if on the start signal my eyes turn towards the direction I am turning and my shoulders and feet are no longer in the their original position, am I considered to no longer being facing uprange and may draw my handgun without violating 10.5.16 Answer: In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

I've never heard of or experienced the MD or RM being notified in the event of a reshoot, at any level match. I can't speak for all matches, but at the last two Nationals that I worked, we were required to notify the RM of all reshoots and the reason for it. Pretty sure I have had to do it at some Area matches as well. Certain squads have been known to paste targets early or other such nonsense in order to get their buddy a reshoot when he shoots poorly. The RM wanted to keep up with what squads are prone to reshoots and what ROs might not be policiing their stage properly causing reshoots, I.e. Poppers not set, or targets not taped.

Don't you think that having another competitor on the stage closing enough to hand the shooter a dropped mag is enough of a safety issue to call stop? Stop him, order a reshoot, and decide if you want to give procedurals to the shooter or the helper or both.

I think that IDPA in general is always going to suffer from a lack of "big dog" talent no matter where you are. The rules are open to some amount of interpretation and subjectivity. This is not a criticism, it's just a fact of the sport. This may not be that big of a deal to those out for a fun weekend of shooting with friends, but when you are there because winning is your job and your livelihood, those kind of rules can make you crazy. I'm sure they feel more comfortable in a sport that has a lesser chance of them losing because of some random call that they have little ability to appeal.

Since there is no penalty available, the only option would be to refuse to start the competitor on the remaining COFs until the equipment was within specifications. That pretty much rules out shooting for no score, since once you start the competitor, the run counts.The seemingly appropriate fix is to remove the 2" requirement in open. I still don't understand why 6.2.5.1 doesn't apply here. 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. It should be no different than any other equipment requirement. If it gets noticed before you shoot, you can be asked to adjust it to comply, no harm no foul. If it gets noticed "during a course of fire", bump to open if available. Since the requirement we are talking about also applies to Open, Open is "not available" and you shoot for no score. I can't imagine that the drafters of the rulebook decided to make an equipment requirement that applies to all divisions that has absolutely no penalty other than adjusting if you get caught.

Don't forget about 6.2.5.1 below: 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. This looks like it only applies if the shooter uses the illegal equipment "during a course of fire". Since Open division has the same 2 inch requirement, I would presume that it is "not available" and the shooter shoots for no score. You can't very we'll bunp an Open shooter to Open as his penalty for using illegal equipment. I assume 5.2.5.2 is for situations where the shooter has not yet used the illegal equipment during a course of fire.

You shoot for no score of course.Actually, since even open division has the same 2 inch requirement, you would shoot for no score per 6.2.5.1.Yup. Reading through the thread again I saw the reference to 6.2.5.1. I was looking for an older rule book online but can't seem to find one - is the application of this rule new for 2014 or is it one of those rules that's always been there but just not enforced? The rule has always been there but they just clarified that you now measure to the grip. Previously it said to the closest body side surface which most people took to include slide rackers, extended safeties and optic mounts. That is a big change, especially for the open guys. I think it also is rarely enforced. I know the few competitors that I have had to make correct their equipment in this regard have looked at me like I had two heads. I don't think most people have even heard of this rule even though it is clearly in the the rule book.

You shoot for no score of course. Actually, since even open division has the same 2 inch requirement, you would shoot for no score per 6.2.5.1.

I absolutely agree that complying with the rules is always on the shooter. It just seems odd that a procedure that is clearly outlined in the rulebook and is "Optional but highly recommended" is pretty much never done, even at the Nationals. Some CROs handle it on each stage, but not in a uniform fashion. Maybe we could avoid some of the "Svetlana" moments if we just took 3 minutes at the beginning of each day and checked equipment as the rulebook suggests.

I would wager that the vast majority of limited and open rigs will probably fail this new test. Most competition belts are nearly 3/4 inch or more. That only leaves 1 1/4 inches between the outer belt and the grip. Since an overlay is a little over 2 inches wide, it provides an easy reference for ROs to check the equipment. If you can fit that overlay between the grip and the inner belt, you should call the RM and have him/her take a look. People need to make sure they are in compliance before traveling to a major match. I would like to see Match Directors begin to comply with 6.2.3 which states: Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire. It would appear to me that if the competitor has actually shot a stage with the equipment, they will shoot the match for no score since all divisions have to meet the 2 inch requirement 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. I think you would have a hard time making the case that that target presented itself to all competitors the same.

I shoot L10 for a coupe of reasons. I find that I shoot major loads just as good as i do minor loads. I also find that one of the strongest parts of my game is my reloads. I could shoot in limited, but I like the extra reloads and stage planning that come from 10 round mags. Shooting limited seems almost too easy.