Doubles?

[mhop]

Doubles?

I think in the current age of shooting there are too many doubles at major matches. Both given out and requested. During a recent match a shooter shot a 20 yard target on the move walking and was trying to get a double where there was only one hole on the target. Another where it was raining with bags on the targets, a shooter requested 3 different single hole targets that they are was doubles. The RM granted the second one a double. On the third target come to find out the shooter had an A and C but the C was hidden from the bag and he was trying to get the A called a double till the RO uncovered the target.

How do we solve this issue? Here is my opinion on this. It all starts with the shooter most know when they fire a miss and are lying to them self and trying to bully the RO then CRO then RM into calling it a double. The RO needs to call what he see and let the shooter dispute it to the CRO. Then the CRO needs to call what he sees not what the shooter says “it looks a little long on the bottom”. If the competitor continues to dispute the target will get pulled at this point the whole squad should be in unison be little the competitor and not letting him live with his choice of pulling the target. Now the RM comes up and needs to take into consideration where the target was shot from and what angle the bullet impacted the target. You can’t call a long hole a double if they shot it at a great angle. If you have to get your magnifying glass out to see two holes you are making yourself see two holes where there is one hole. If you compete at the local level and are awarding doubles to shooters just cause of who they are or how much they bitch you are doing a disservice to that competitor because when they go to a major and shoot they expect to get doubles even though they miss the target and it slows the match down even more than people make ready procedure’s. RO’s stand up for your call, call what you see and then move on. CRO’s also call what you see and then it is on the competitor to request the RM to make the final call from there. I am not saying disregard the overlays but you can look hard and long enough at the same hole and make it into more than one radius. RM’s if you keep giving the competitors the call they will keep asking for them. This is definite time waster for the match’s to continue with the current procedure. I don’t know how to fix this maybe you have the perfect way and it should be implemented by the shooting sports organizations.

This comes down to each competitor owning what they shot. Not being little babies trying to bully the volunteer help and get a score they didn’t earn. This also comes into play when you see your score sheet and it doesn’t have the right time on it you argue till you have to reshoot the stage and get a correct score.

[P.E. Kelley]

In the instances that I have seen "doubles" being called for by a competitor, I had often thought I should whip out a $100 bill and

ask that competitor to repeat the "double" from the same position. Do it and you get the $100 and the points on the target in

question.

I have even heard "for every three I ask for I get one or two"

I think THAT would cut down on this occurrence.

[mactiger]

You've already mentioned the two things that will fix this problem:

First: RO competence and confidence are key when making scoring calls, and not letting yourself get talked into something that isn't there is paramount. Call what you see, realize there is no such thing as "benefit of the doubt", and stand by it.

Second: Competitors, as you say, need to own up to what they shot.

It's true that when people start getting easy scores, they ask for them more and more. It's a shame that there are certified RM's working out there that just "give" the competitor what they ask for, rather than calling what they see.

Good topic.

Troy

Edited September 19, 2012 by mactiger

[Ben Stoeger]

Man... Mhop was about ready to explode at the IPSC Nationals. I have never been on a squad where so many doubles were asked for. (and it was all from the same few people)

[whitedog]

I once asked a very, very known shooter to do a double. It was at a Target chest high.....at 7 yards. Yes, a wager was involved. Production gun. Out of 50 rounds. 25 tries. Not one that could be called a true double. Yes the holes touched. Yes they were close. But none were through the same hole. True doubles are as rare as unicorn tears. Yet people swear they get them all the time. Nature of the beast.

[remoandiris]

Man... Mhop was about ready to explode at the IPSC Nationals. I have never been on a squad where so many doubles were asked for. (and it was all from the same few people)

You have to be a damn good shooter to be on a super squad. Maybe they just thought they couldn't miss at those distances and times. I don't remember anyone on your squad claiming a double on my stage (13, unloaded table start).

There were 2 guys on other squads that claimed a double on my stage...one on the closest target to the start position and one on the 3rd closest target. I pulled out one of the trusty overlays my friend, the CRO, gave me...no double either time. Each accepted it. Neither asked the CRO to verify. I wouldn't have minded if they would have asked for his opinion. The rules allow it.

As for those who keep asking for doubles, you know who they are and their reputation will get around. Heck, you may decide you don't want to shoot with them anymore. Or you'll just accept that who they are when their targets are getting scored is/isn't who they are at other times.

[steel1212]

In the instances that I have seen "doubles" being called for by a competitor, I had often thought I should whip out a $100 bill and

ask that competitor to repeat the "double" from the same position. Do it and you get the $100 and the points on the target in

question.

I have even heard "for every three I ask for I get one or two"

I think THAT would cut down on this occurrence.

[Poppa Bear]

I have seen a number of doubles in various matches. Most were easy to call due to an obvious figure 8 pattern. I have seen a few that were almost a perfectly round hole, but had just enough oval to them to make it obvious that it was two bullets. Several of them I called as A/M or C/M with the original look but the shooter requested a second look where it became apparent that it was in fact an almost perfect double. It was still obvious without the overlay. I used the overlays many times to demonstrate that it is a single hole and stuck by my call of a Mike.

[h4444]

I had a double on a classifier once...Bang and Clang. I didn't ask for it,,,,my RO immediately called it a double as he looked up briefly as I engaged the paper target in the middle saw the first shot/hole, then saw the hole "open up" just a little with the second shot. Basically, he said the edges of the hole kind of twitched outward with the second shot When we went up close on the target, I'd have been hard pressed to ask for a double.

Of course....I was focused on seeing the front sight, so I didn't see the what was going on with the target. LOL

And trust me, that RO wouldn't have given it, if he didn't feel it was the right call based on what he saw,,,even though in reality, at the brief moment he looked up, he wasn't watching what he was supposed to watch......my pistol and me.

Byron

[HOA]

We are constantly teasing each other about doubles, anytime there is a single hole. It keeps people from asking for one for fear of being teased, unless they really think it is one.

[SmittyFL]

In 14 years and I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of rounds I've fired two that I know of. Basically there should be no such thing as a double. They are so rare....didn't someone say unicorn tears?? Overlays should be to determine if the hole is touching a scoring line.....not to determine a double. If you can't tell with your naked eye it's Alpha Mike!! As my buddy says, if you're so damn good that you can shoot doubles all the time then why don't you spread them out a quarter inch? There are still some integrity issues in IPSC/USPSA.

While were on an integrity conversation I'd like to relay another story from the US IPSC Match. Maybe this should be it's own thread....

On stage 14 past National Champion revolver shooter Cliff Walsh had a squib early on in the 32 round stage. Come to find out later the officials didn't score it properly and there was no time recorded. Even though everyone clearly agreed he zeroed the stage you can't just make up a score for the computer. So Cliff was ordered to re-shoot the stage. He tried to protest, saying he shouldn't get a re-shoot but there was no choice. So he finally accepted.

On the start signal he fired one shot, unloaded and showed clear.

Edited September 20, 2012 by SmittyFL

[remoandiris]

On stage 14 past National Champion revolver shooter Cliff Walsh had a squib early on in the 32 round stage. Come to find out later the officials didn't score it properly and there was no time recorded. Even though everyone clearly agreed he zeroed the stage you can't just make up a score for the computer. So Cliff was ordered to re-shoot the stage. He tried to protest, saying he shouldn't get a re-shoot but there was no choice. So he finally accepted.

On the start signal he fired one shot, unloaded and showed clear.

Now THAT is a story that needs to be repeated!! Too often the negative stories are retold. This is a very good positive story.

[Bigpops]

That's Cliff for you.....a true man of integrity. (even when noone is watching)

[steel1212]

While were on an integrity conversation I'd like to relay another story from the US IPSC Match. Maybe this should be it's own thread....

On stage 14 past National Champion revolver shooter Cliff Walsh had a squib early on in the 32 round stage. Come to find out later the officials didn't score it properly and there was no time recorded. Even though everyone clearly agreed he zeroed the stage you can't just make up a score for the computer. So Cliff was ordered to re-shoot the stage. He tried to protest, saying he shouldn't get a re-shoot but there was no choice. So he finally accepted.

On the start signal he fired one shot, unloaded and showed clear.

I'm at a loss for words. Freaking Awesome Cliff just Awesome!

[h4444]

On stage 14 past National Champion revolver shooter Cliff Walsh had a squib early on in the 32 round stage. Come to find out later the officials didn't score it properly and there was no time recorded. Even though everyone clearly agreed he zeroed the stage you can't just make up a score for the computer. So Cliff was ordered to re-shoot the stage. He tried to protest, saying he shouldn't get a re-shoot but there was no choice. So he finally accepted.

On the start signal he fired one shot, unloaded and showed clear.

Now THAT is a story that needs to be repeated!! Too often the negative stories are retold. This is a very good positive story.

+1

[whitedog]

Wow...don't know him, but what a stand up guy.

[Avezorak]

That is pretty much in line with everything Ive ever heard about Cliff. That simple act speaks volumes about a persons character.

[a matt]

Wow, just wow....

[MarkCO]

Yes, there are way too many. Working my first Nationals, I ended up ROing the Super squad. Not going to say names, but a top competitor wanted a double that I had called a hit and a miss. Told me he had "called the shot" and it was a double and this could cost him the match. The CRO conferred, still a hit and a miss. The RM was called, still a hit and a miss. That competitor stared me down for close to 10 minutes before he finally walked off the stage obviously angry and me for HIS miss.

Last weekend, I was shooting MUCH too slow, but ended up with several doubles with maybe a 1/3 to a 1/2 diameter spread, and a few figure 8s, some the RO pulled his card to check. I ended up with one hole in a target after having several close pairs, the RO looked at me...I said Alpha Mike, I KNOW I pulled it and told him to not even bother with a card.

Add to my disdain a few competitors who are fast enough and skilled enough to get re-shoots when they are trashing a stage. Hard to prove intent, but they are trashing not only their reputation, but the integrty of the sport in both of these cases.

[Guest]

Major kudos to Mr. Cliff Walsh. Stories like this are very cool to hear and worth passing on to other shooters.

At the 1991 Steel Challenge Shootoff between Jerry Barnhart and Jethro "the Jet" Dionisio they were neck and neck when Jethro’s gun jammed. Jerry could have claimed victory right then and there, but he didn’t want to win the shoot-offs like that so they shot again. Jerry won in the end, but it could have gone the other way. Even if Jerry would have lost, he still would have been the winner that day.

Honor always stands tall.

About the original topic - Agreed: Immaculate doubles = Unicorn tears

[whitedog]

Perhaps we should come up with another name beside double...

The "I'm too good to miss"

The "lottery shot"

The " luckiest sob shot?

The "immaculate perception"

Got any more?

Just like science..if it can't be reproduced on demand, it was a fluke.

[steel1212]

The "I'm too good to miss"

That reminds me. When I first got into this game I was at a major match and one of the ROs told me they had a Master shoot the stage and called it a double. The RO said nope Alpha Mike. The shooter said I'm a Master I don't miss

[jester121]

On stage 14 past National Champion revolver shooter Cliff Walsh had a squib early on in the 32 round stage. Come to find out later the officials didn't score it properly and there was no time recorded. Even though everyone clearly agreed he zeroed the stage you can't just make up a score for the computer. So Cliff was ordered to re-shoot the stage. He tried to protest, saying he shouldn't get a re-shoot but there was no choice. So he finally accepted.

On the start signal he fired one shot, unloaded and showed clear.

I'm reminded of Renee Russo talking about Costner's character shooting a 12 at the US Open in the movie Tin Cup.

In 5 or 10 years no one's going to remember who placed first, second, third, or last in the revo division at the 2012 IPSC Nationals. But people will remember this story. At least I will.

[a matt]

Well said!

[Bosshoss]

On stage 14 past National Champion revolver shooter Cliff Walsh had a squib early on in the 32 round stage. Come to find out later the officials didn't score it properly and there was no time recorded. Even though everyone clearly agreed he zeroed the stage you can't just make up a score for the computer. So Cliff was ordered to re-shoot the stage. He tried to protest, saying he shouldn't get a re-shoot but there was no choice. So he finally accepted.

On the start signal he fired one shot, unloaded and showed clear.

Thanks for posting this. What a impressive thing to do Cliff.