USPSA BOD Meeting

[Skydiver]

And if the magnetic mag holders are being banned because of the so called "new shooters don't have all the money to buy the gear" argument, I submit that the magnetic holders are at least $15 cheaper than just about any mag pouch on the market today.

But no one would just have the mag holder. They'd have to buy a regular one, and a magnetic one. Then carry both around and swap based on the match stages. That's the hitch.

I must be the only guy who added one and left it where it was all the time.

Considering this: http://shootersconne...stem-P2287.aspx

...which I already bought to try out, but now apparently can't use in Production...

...I'm thinking it isn't a big deal for either price, placement, or any "switching" issues. [sigh] Ah well. My wife is probably going to shoot L-10 this year, instead of Production, so I guess I'll give it to her to use.

You can use the magnet in 2012. It's only in 2013 when production and single stack cannot use magnets.

[CHARLES D]

Chuck A I must commend you for putting up with us. I for one appreciate you posting on the topic. And if i remeber right, you were the one who informed us of this potential rule change before us. Thank You.

[atbarr]

For more than twice for what I paid for my M&P, I can buy http://www.cz-usa.co...75_SP01_Shadow/ that will be legal (I HOPE) in Production in 2013. Edited December 29, 2011 by atbarr

[beltjones]

Neomet wrote:

If you want to try to beat Rob you are better off arguing for a rule that does not allow total knee replacements...

That's non-OEM also.

(Just kidding Rob.)

Maybe just a 30% penalty for non-OEM body parts...oh wait, he'd still kick my tail, better go with at least 50%.

I think you will lose this argument.INTERNAL parts: This clause is NOW interpreted

to mean that a broad range of INTERNAL parts may

be modified or replaced – either with OEM or aftermarket

parts.

As long as implants are still legal (not for me)...

[BritinUSA]

For more than twice for what I paid for my M&P, I can buy http://www.cz-usa.co...75_SP01_Shadow/ that will be legal (I HOPE) in Production in 2013.

Or you can get something even better, not sure of the exact price, somewhere between $2000-$3000

Its a gorgeous gun and if I was going to shoot Production this is the gun I would do it with..

[GrumpyOne]

Just a more expensive copy of the CZ.....and not worth it.

[atbarr]

They should remove this http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-store-product-details.php?Production-Trigger-Kit-from-Glocktriggers.com-108 from our web site. Or at least say, 'will not be legal in Production Division starting January 1st 2013'.

[tavman]

For more than twice for what I paid for my M&P, I can buy http://www.cz-usa.co...75_SP01_Shadow/ that will be legal (I HOPE) in Production in 2013.

Just ordered one! I figure between the CZ and my M&P pro with the soon to be illegal trigger I will have something to compete with in 2013 when this all shakes out.....

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

And if the magnetic mag holders are being banned because of the so called "new shooters don't have all the money to buy the gear" argument, I submit that the magnetic holders are at least $15 cheaper than just about any mag pouch on the market today.

Even cheaper when you make them yourself

[TGO]

I figured by now someone would have corrected Rob, almost instantly when somebody new calls a Division a class they are jumped on about it.

I guess I have to be the one, Rob it is a DIVISION not a Class. We all know your old and set in your ways so try to keep up.

Rich

That's because Rob is TGO. He can call it whatever he wants. (shhh we don't listen to him anyway)

He's no Jackie Gleason or Wayne Gretzsky.

Rich

Yea, but at least they're talking about me!!

Rob

[TGO]

I figured by now someone would have corrected Rob, almost instantly when somebody new calls a Division a class they are jumped on about it.

I guess I have to be the one, Rob it is a DIVISION not a Class. We all know your old and set in your ways so try to keep up.

Rich

That's because Rob is TGO. He can call it whatever he wants. (shhh we don't listen to him anyway)

DITTO

Division, class, whatever... I'm a shooter not a rocket surgeon!!!

Rob

[TGO]

Most new shooters go to a USPSA match and all they see is the one guy shooting the loud goofy looking OPen and Mod guns. He doesn't even realize there is a place for him and his new stockish gun. Here at our club, new shooters show up with production legal equipment and then load the mags fully placing them in limited. They just want to get thru the stages and don't care about the score.

Rob

We shoot those "loud goofy looking OPen and Mod guns" because we can't see the iron sights clearly enough (anymore) to hit the broad side of a barn. You will be there one day.

I'm there now, I just never have aimed so it's not that tough a transition for me to deal with going blind.

Rob

[Loves2Shoot]

Alright, I'm done. You guys can beat up another AD for awhile.

Preferably one who actually voted for it

[TGO]

Neomet wrote:

If you want to try to beat Rob you are better off arguing for a rule that does not allow total knee replacements...

That's non-OEM also.

(Just kidding Rob.)

OK, That's really ****ing funny!!

Rob

[SteveU]

I think Rob pretty clearly stated the reasons for the rule in the "long winded post"

However that rationale seems at odds with the popularity and growth of the production division as is.

So when there is conflict, re-examine the premises (in this case the statement of intent of the production division)

Which one is "the long winded post?"

Chris

Lol. It's up there somewhere. ^ By Rob Boudrie. I dunno how many pages back.

EDITED TO ADD: Post #541. A well thought out restatement of posts #17, #59, #107, and #111.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Steve Umansky

[gose]

Nothing about freeing Open shotgun?

[Resjudicata]

I think Rob pretty clearly stated the reasons for the rule in the "long winded post"

However that rationale seems at odds with the popularity and growth of the production division as is.

So when there is conflict, re-examine the premises (in this case the statement of intent of the production division)

Which one is "the long winded post?"

Chris

Lol. It's up there somewhere. ^ By Rob Boudrie. I dunno how many pages back.

Ahh. When he referred to a "long winded post" by "Rob" I thought he was talking about Leatham.

Chris

[RIIID]

I figured by now someone would have corrected Rob, almost instantly when somebody new calls a Division a class they are jumped on about it.

I guess I have to be the one, Rob it is a DIVISION not a Class. We all know your old and set in your ways so try to keep up.

Rich

That's because Rob is TGO. He can call it whatever he wants. (shhh we don't listen to him anyway)

DITTO

Division, class, whatever... I'm a shooter not a rocket surgeon!!!

Rob

I thought you were a brain surgeon or was that a short order cook.

Carry the naught,

Rich

[LPatterson]

They should remove this http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-store-product-details.php?Production-Trigger-Kit-from-Glocktriggers.com-108 from our web site. Or at least say, 'will not be legal in Production Division starting January 1st 2013'.

Why would the Challenger not be legal??? Glocktriggers.com is not advertising a sub 3# TP. They are advertising a 3.5# connector with overtravel adjustment. Let's wait until, say July before we extend this thread to 1000-2000 posts to talk about things we don't know what we are talking about.

ETA spelling sucks.

Edited December 30, 2011 by LPatterson

[leas327]

Division, class, whatever... I'm a shooter not a rocket surgeon!!!

Rob

I want to make that my signature

[Krag]

I shoot production with a Para 18.9 LDA that has a 100% stock factory trigger. I just used my RCBS trigger pull scale to check it and it breaks at just under 50 oz.! That gives me less than 2 oz. of wiggle room in case I decide to smooth and polish it up a bit.

I know some Production shooters who have gotten their Glock triggers down around 2.5 lbs. They are not going to be happy campers about this. I have a feeling that a lot of them are going to move over to Limited.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Krag

[vluc]

I shoot production with a Para 18.9 LDA that has a 100% stock factory trigger. I just used my RCBS trigger pull scale to check it and it breaks at just under 50 oz.! That gives me less than 2 oz. of wiggle room in case I decide to smooth and polish it up a bit.

I know some Production shooters who have gotten their Glock triggers down around 2.5 lbs. They are not going to be happy campers about this. I have a feeling that a lot of them are going to move over to Limited.

No, they will be getting royally PO'd, contacting as many AD's as possible, stirring the pot with other members who are unaware of what is going on, telling them how it will impact them, then voting those out who disregard what the membership has to say.

It is OUR organization.

[atbarr]

They should remove this http://www.uspsa.org...riggers.com-108 from our web site. Or at least say, 'will not be legal in Production Division starting January 1st 2013'.

Why would the Challenger not be legal??? Glocktriggers.com is not advertising a sub 3# TP. They are advertising a 3.5# connector with overtravel adjustment. Let's wait until, say July before we extend this thread to 1000-2000 posts to talk about things we don't know what we are talking about.

ETA spelling sucks.

So this trigger can't be 'tweaked' to < 3 lb. TP?

[kevin c]

Significant drifting going on now:

Issues

1. BOD decision without eliciting input from membership

2. Measurement of trigger pull

1. BOD

a. BOD should have elicited input from the membership.

b. Posting of agenda items, the executive director should have done this

c. Meetings - I use Live Meeting all the time, there is no excuse why USPSA BOD cannot do the same. The BOD does not physically have to meet to conduct USPSA business

2. Measurement of Trigger Pull

a. This is almost impossible to execute with fairness and repeatability - My 1911 trigger pulls vary when I do it in the same setting

SIDE ISSUE: Out of the Box: This has no bearing in the decision making process. This is a distraction to the salient points.

I would add your list what somebody mentioned earlier (though there are too many posts for me to track it down): The potential invalidation of all Production Division Classifiers, both HHF's and all scores submitted prior to the rule change going into effect, or alternatively, that all subsequent scores submitted may be artificially depressed, because of a rule change that directly effects the shootability of the gun used (consider my favorite - Can You Count).

Can the BOD pick on another division for awhile. I would ask them to find any Production GM with a stock production gun. Whats next?

They need only look around the table at the BOD meeting to find a Production GM (or 3) that run stock guns. Mine is. (other than grip tape and sights...which I do sometimes run without, as well)

There are a number of others.

With the two bit trigger job only? You mean I haven't gotten past A, even with my Vanek kit, because I don't practice, not that you GM's have some super secret mods in your guns? nuts... Well, I guess that, even if Charlie comes out with a super slick 3# kit, I'll still have to hit the range to move up.

...If my Fantastic Somewhat Plastic Shooter comes out of the box with a crappy 6 lb trigger, I am going to spend every bit as much money to make it a really sweet 3 lb trigger as I would have if I could have made it a 2 lb trigger. <--- I agree

<the TP rule> is essentially UNENFORCEABLE...

perhaps not unenforceable, but a real headache. I don't see local match directors making the effort.

Production is NOT a Carry Gun Division, not now and not back on day one. It was and is a place to shoot on an equal footing with respect to PF and capacity and where DAO, DA/SA and Striker fired guns can compete without having to shoot against the S*Is and all the super customizations that we have in Open, Limited and L-10. <-- I agree, but think also that it is a great place for new folks to start.

As others have said, this division in USPSA WORKS! Why, oh why is the BOD intent on screwing it up? <-- I'm coming around to this POV. While I personally don't care (I shoot for fun, and will advance or not according to the effort I put into practice, not into my equipment, regardless of the rules), and while I don't think the newbies will care (they bring what they have, and will modify their equipment, per whatever rules are in place at the time), it certainly seems that many other current Production shooters may be put out by needed "remodification" of their competition guns. Also their is the classifier issue, the enforcement issue, and the BOD apparently precipitous action issue to consider.

...I know some Production shooters who have gotten their Glock triggers down around 2.5 lbs. They are not going to be happy campers about this. I have a feeling that a lot of them are going to move over to Limited.

No, they will be getting royally PO'd, contacting as many AD's as possible, stirring the pot with other members who are unaware of what is going on, telling them how it will impact them, then voting those out who disregard what the membership has to say.

It is OUR organization.

Some will, others won't. Depends on how much you care. I agree with speaking out if it matters enough to you. There's a year yet before the TP rule takes effect - plenty of time to have the new BOD take the matter up again.

Oh, and I favor keeping the division as is, including ten rounds. That would go even if I didn't live in a ten round state.

Edited December 31, 2011 by kevin c

[warpspeed]

What is the chance that this all gets reversed / deleted or modified ?