USPSA BOD Meeting

[Micah]

Thank you Brandon This is what I get for taking a few months off!

[Micah]

So no magnets ANYWHERE or just mag pouches?

Juuuuust kidding. They looked nice for table starts and worked surprisingly well for Glock mags, but imho not a big whoop.

[JThompson]

Now you just stick a big magnet in your back pocket and stick the mag on your ass.

Edited December 29, 2011 by JThompson

[38SuperDub]

OK prepare to flame me

What about a "Limited Lite" division or rename for production.

No magwells

9mm minor scoring.

Size and weight limits

Mag length like 120mm

10-15 rd limit.

Problem solved

Let people play with their guns. I'd be willing to bet that TGO with a subcompact xd can still beat me with a tricked out sti. But this gives everyone a fair chance

Plus if you want to talk about leveling the playing field

What are classifications for?!?!

[Lee G]

Brandon, I think the issue is most don't think there is a problem with production. Most are happy with it the way it is.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Lee G

[Sterling White]

Rob said,

If you want to make folks happy, allow the same round capacity that IPSC uses for production.

Two thumbs up!!!

[Sin-ster]

Brandon, I think the issue is most don't think there is a problem with production. Most are happy with it the way it is.

Boom. Headshot.

Leave Production alone and create another Division if there's some unspoken need for "box stock" competition. Starting from scratch, you can easily stipulate "change sights, add grip tape/stipple (or not), x-minimum weight-- PERIOD" and be done with it. Heck, give it the Production name-- I don't think any of us will care, even if the current-Production Division is re-titled "Frilly Pink Tutu Wearers". Do it just to test the waters. Heck, at this point, it almost seems like it should be required-- to prove or disprove the theories behind this rule change. If so many people really have a problem with Production the way it stands, there should be a mass exodus to the new Division-- right? The closer the rules mimic Production, the better the test will be.

I'll bet dimes to dollars that it won't happen-- especially if this 3# rule falls to the wayside. The proposed reason I anticipate: "It'd be too much work!" Even if I write the rules up for you, in the next 30 minutes?

Remember-- you can't use "It'd be too hard to enforce". We're already facing that one...

[Jim Norman]

I'll defer to TGO on almost any shooting related issue, but not on the 10 round Cap in Production. With 10 rounds one can compete with a 9mm, .40 or .45. If we switch to a 15 cap, we toss a considerable number of guns out of competition. True, the very top don't run other than a 9mm, but there are a lot of people that only have one gun and that one gun is not always a 9mm.

Keep Production 10 rounds.

Toss the TP weight rule

Don't care about the magnet too much, but that probably should go away.

Multiple mags in one pouch, again, probably not really right for Production.

[sperman]

When the BOD/RMI writes the actual rules, they need to make sure that these rules aren't in conflict.:

Motion: Production and Single Stack Appendix will have the following added:

Each magazine must be contained individually within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means.

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Ruling:

Rule 5.2.4 is interpreted to mean that when the equipment has to start with the magazines or speed loaders in retention devices attached to the belt, for those divisions that have position restrictions of holster and other equipment, they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12.

[Chuck Anderson]

Don't care about the magnet too much, but that probably should go away.

Multiple mags in one pouch, again, probably not really right for Production.

Regarding the magnetic mag pouches in Production and Single Stack. The idea behind it was to try and cut down on the amount of race specific gear someone had to buy in either Division. Rather than make someone go out and buy 3-4 magnetic magazine pouches, and have them tote them around to each match that might have a table start, they were eliminated. I know Production and Single Stack are more greatly effected by the change than other divisions would be since you need to grab more mags. But that means you'd also need to buy more magnets. The idea behind both Divisions (at least in my, writing this at 4AM head) is to try and minimize the amount of competition specific gear you "have" to buy to be competetive.

[Chuck Anderson]

When the BOD/RMI writes the actual rules, they need to make sure that these rules aren't in conflict.:

Motion: Production and Single Stack Appendix will have the following added:

Each magazine must be contained individually within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means.

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Ruling:

Rule 5.2.4 is interpreted to mean that when the equipment has to start with the magazines or speed loaders in retention devices attached to the belt, for those divisions that have position restrictions of holster and other equipment, they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12.

Sorry, it's too early in the morning. Can you spell it out for me? What am I missing?

[sperman]

The motion says each magazine must be contained individually within the mag pouch. 5.2.4 says magazines can be stored in pockets. The ruling says magazines can be in your hand.

[jwfuhrman]

If you wanted to change something, do away with the magazine capacity restrictions. That more closely reflects "real world carry guns". Make it so magazine extensions like Arredondo can't be used in Production, not sure what the factory length mags are mostly for a full size gun, but it's under the 140mm.

Trigger pull weight is to varied, even among the majority of carry guns.

[Recoil45]

We should not do away with the 10rd limit. Many of us live in states with bans on standard capacity mags.

[West Texas Granny]

The motion says each magazine must be contained individually within the mag pouch. 5.2.4 says magazines can be stored in pockets. The ruling says magazines can be in your hand.

Nothing like clear and concise rules to operate by.

[jwfuhrman]

1325166402[/url]' post='1602382']

We should not do away with the 10rd limit. Many of us live in states with bans on standard capacity mags.

Then move! Just kidding, but seriously, get to a free state

Really though, A Production 10 division could be created just for that very reason, Production would have IPSC capacity, and P10 would be the Prod we have today.

[Jim Norman]

Don't care about the magnet too much, but that probably should go away.

Multiple mags in one pouch, again, probably not really right for Production.

Regarding the magnetic mag pouches in Production and Single Stack. The idea behind it was to try and cut down on the amount of race specific gear someone had to buy in either Division. Rather than make someone go out and buy 3-4 magnetic magazine pouches, and have them tote them around to each match that might have a table start, they were eliminated. I know Production and Single Stack are more greatly effected by the change than other divisions would be since you need to grab more mags. But that means you'd also need to buy more magnets. The idea behind both Divisions (at least in my, writing this at 4AM head) is to try and minimize the amount of competition specific gear you "have" to buy to be competetive.

By go away, I meant that the magnets for Production should not be allowed. Sorry, also a bit groggy this morning.

[spanky]

32 pages? I'm gonna call tl;dr and very pleasantly ask that someone pm me with the changes to Prod

(tl;dr=too long/didn't read)

ah, good ole tl;dr

[Chills1994]

Nik wrote:

....mid 50s to mid 80s at the other....

DAYUUMMNNN! That is a lot of shooters for a local club match.

Me? At some point I would like to get a Browning Hi Power or clone, probably in .40 S & W, and shoot it, most likely in the L-10 division.

I think they are HAWT!:

of course, I will have to do something about that hammer spur and/or the beavertail. Ouch, that'll leave a mark!

Look at www.heirloomprecision.com for some cool Hi-power work.

Rob

Thanks!

Will do!

[Flexmoney]

The motion says each magazine must be contained individually within the mag pouch. 5.2.4 says magazines can be stored in pockets. The ruling says magazines can be in your hand.

Nothing like clear and concise rules to operate by.

Help out.

YOU write that one up. Should be easy, without the pressure of 10 people sitting around the room "pitching in" all at once and time pressure to move on to the next topic.

(I hope and assume the details of that wording get sorted out. Rules shouldn't be written "under the gun".)

[Chuck Anderson]

If you wanted to change something, do away with the magazine capacity restrictions. That more closely reflects "real world carry guns". Make it so magazine extensions like Arredondo can't be used in Production, not sure what the factory length mags are mostly for a full size gun, but it's under the 140mm.

Trigger pull weight is to varied, even among the majority of carry guns.

Not going to rehash it here, but there is another thread along those lines, Production 15.

[Flexmoney]

Yes, after 28 pages...lets not throw Production 15 into the mix. There is already a thread on that.

[George Jones]

Removing the 10-rd limit in Production will turn it into a 9mm division.

What is it that new shooters usually don't have?

1. Enough mags

2. Reloading skills

So if you really want to keep Production as a "welcoming to new shooters" division, leave the round count alone. Otherwise, new shooters bringing their .40s or .45s will quickly figure out they "can't compete" due to extra reloads.

Competing isn't always about winning. To new shooters it's about not feeling embarassed.

[Chills1994]

George Jones wrote:

What is it that new shooters usually don't have?

1. Enough mags

2. Reloading skills

what I usually tell new shooters to do is to shoot Limited minor and just load what few Glock 17/34 mags they have all the way up.

[GrumpyOne]

Removing the 10-rd limit in Production will turn it into a 9mm division.

What is it that new shooters usually don't have?

1. Enough mags

2. Reloading skills

So if you really want to keep Production as a "welcoming to new shooters" division, leave the round count alone. Otherwise, new shooters bringing their .40s or .45s will quickly figure out they "can't compete" due to extra reloads.

Competing isn't always about winning. To new shooters it's about not feeling embarassed.

What was said above is the truth. Most new shooters (including myself when I was new) are more worried about being DQ'ed and not getting embarrassed than how well they have shot in the match. By new shooters, I mean shooters very new to shooting, not someone who has shot a lot and is just now shooting in uspsa.