USPSA BOD Meeting

[lcs]

I'll defer to TGO on almost any shooting related issue, but not on the 10 round Cap in Production. With 10 rounds one can compete with a 9mm, .40 or .45. If we switch to a 15 cap, we toss a considerable number of guns out of competition. True, the very top don't run other than a 9mm, but there are a lot of people that only have one gun and that one gun is not always a 9mm.

Keep Production 10 rounds.

Toss the TP weight rule

Don't care about the magnet too much, but that probably should go away.

Multiple mags in one pouch, again, probably not really right for Production.

You are talking about a very small amount of people. The new 40s hold 15. Most people who shoot 40 and 45 do so locally and if they move on to shooting major matches on a regular basis do so with 9MM . At the cost of ammunition, a serious shooter is going to switch to 9MM for Production and reload. 40 and 45 are fringe players and we should not base Production on the minority of guns shooting Production.

Magnetic mag pouches? Who cares? Obviously just BOD from what we are hearing.

Toss the trigger pull! I agree with.

[badchad]

Removing the 10-rd limit in Production will turn it into a 9mm division.

What is it that new shooters usually don't have?

1. Enough mags

2. Reloading skills

When they first start out they often don't have enough mags so 2 is a yes, nor do they have 5 mag pouches on their belt. Also new shooters often don't have the ability to knock down 8 pieces of steel from one postition. I think scoring minor only in Production already makes it a 9mm division for all practical purposes.

So if you really want to keep Production as a "welcoming to new shooters" division, leave the round count alone. Otherwise, new shooters bringing their .40s or .45s will quickly figure out they "can't compete" due to extra reloads.

Should the .40 & .45 shooters be pushed towards Production or L10? Cause it seems to me the same argument is being used to prop up the status quo on both divisions. As has been discussed before, and generally conceded on both sides of the argument, new shooters very often start in Limited regardless of what gun they shoot.

Competing isn't always about winning. To new shooters it's about not feeling embarassed.

I agree with that, and I think that's why new shooters so often shoot Limited. Less chance of running empty on a texas star and or not being able to complete a course of fire cause you shot through all your mags on a plate rack. That and they just want to finish as high up on the overall page as they can, or beat their friend they came with regardless of division.

[D.Hayden]

In 17 pages, I probably missed this.. but where are the December 2011 Board minutes?

I found this:

>>

December 2012 Board Meeting Minutes

Minuted from the December, 2012 USPA Board meeting are posted in the http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-board-mtgs-home.php;Board Minutes Area

<<

But, even though they say they have 1 year in the future, there doesn't seem to be anything past Sept 2011

[Greg Bell]

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-board-mtg-minutes.php

[ChuckS]

In 17 pages, I probably missed this.. but where are the December 2011 Board minutes?

I found this:

>>

December 2012 Board Meeting Minutes

Minuted from the December, 2012 USPA Board meeting are posted in the http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-board-mtgs-home.php;Board Minutes Area

<<

But, even though they say they have 1 year in the future, there doesn't seem to be anything past Sept 2011

Click the link in your post (above) and the click "Click to access In-Person & Telephone Meeting Minutes". December 2011 is at the top of the list...

[Jon Merricks]

Not that I have much to add to the conversation other than to contact your AD. You might be supprised at how supportive they are when you talk to them.

[Jim Norman]

1325166402[/url]' post='1602382']

We should not do away with the 10rd limit. Many of us live in states with bans on standard capacity mags.

Then move! Just kidding, but seriously, get to a free state

Really though, A Production 10 division could be created just for that very reason, Production would have IPSC capacity, and P10 would be the Prod we have today.

John,

All you need to do is convince your MD to run an IPSC Rules Match in place of your USPSA Rules Match. You have what you are asking for. A 9mm only need apply Race Holster, equipment race Production Division.

[Jim Norman]

I'll defer to TGO on almost any shooting related issue, but not on the 10 round Cap in Production. With 10 rounds one can compete with a 9mm, .40 or .45. If we switch to a 15 cap, we toss a considerable number of guns out of competition. True, the very top don't run other than a 9mm, but there are a lot of people that only have one gun and that one gun is not always a 9mm.

Keep Production 10 rounds.

Toss the TP weight rule

Don't care about the magnet too much, but that probably should go away.

Multiple mags in one pouch, again, probably not really right for Production.

You are talking about a very small amount of people. The new 40s hold 15. Most people who shoot 40 and 45 do so locally and if they move on to shooting major matches on a regular basis do so with 9MM . At the cost of ammunition, a serious shooter is going to switch to 9MM for Production and reload. 40 and 45 are fringe players and we should not base Production on the minority of guns shooting Production.

Magnetic mag pouches? Who cares? Obviously just BOD from what we are hearing.

Toss the trigger pull! I agree with.

I suppose I am in that small percentage then, I shoot Production with a downloaded .40. I don't need two tool heads, I don't need to switch dies, I change the powder measure and twist the micrometer seating die and I am good to go. I have shot 147s in 9mm and the .40 still feels better to me. Yes there is a difference in price, but from a 180 to a 147 (Have not tried 165 in .40 production yet)it is not a killer.

Oh and I think I qualify as a serious shooter. Lately I'll admit I have not shot Production, however that is likely going to change some in the next year. I'll be doing more SS, Production and L10 as opposed to Limited. I need to bump up my percentages.

[Skydiver]

We should not do away with the 10rd limit. Many of us live in states with bans on standard capacity mags.

Then move! Just kidding, but seriously, get to a free state

Really though, A Production 10 division could be created just for that very reason, Production would have IPSC capacity, and P10 would be the Prod we have today.

John,

All you need to do is convince your MD to run an IPSC Rules Match in place of your USPSA Rules Match. You have what you are asking for. A 9mm only need apply Race Holster, equipment race Production Division.

If he runs an IPSC Rules match in place of USPSA Rules Match, he'l have to contend with the 5 lbs trigger pull requirement and telling people shooting their Glock 34's and XDM 5.25's that they'll have to shoot in Standard Division instead of Production Division.

[Nik Habicht]

Don't care about the magnet too much, but that probably should go away.

Multiple mags in one pouch, again, probably not really right for Production.

Regarding the magnetic mag pouches in Production and Single Stack. The idea behind it was to try and cut down on the amount of race specific gear someone had to buy in either Division. Rather than make someone go out and buy 3-4 magnetic magazine pouches, and have them tote them around to each match that might have a table start, they were eliminated. I know Production and Single Stack are more greatly effected by the change than other divisions would be since you need to grab more mags. But that means you'd also need to buy more magnets. The idea behind both Divisions (at least in my, writing this at 4AM head) is to try and minimize the amount of competition specific gear you "have" to buy to be competetive.

Did you guys read 5.2.5.3?

Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a holster or magazine pouch, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the “Standby” command.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think that rule allows you to swap out mag pouches for a different type for a particular stage.....

If a production shooter wanted to run "all magnets, all the time" or to run one pouch as a magnet, I'm not seeing the issue....

[West Texas Granny]

The motion says each magazine must be contained individually within the mag pouch. 5.2.4 says magazines can be stored in pockets. The ruling says magazines can be in your hand.

Nothing like clear and concise rules to operate by.

Help out.

YOU write that one up. Should be easy, without the pressure of 10 people sitting around the room "pitching in" all at once and time pressure to move on to the next topic.

(I hope and assume the details of that wording get sorted out. Rules shouldn't be written "under the gun".)

1. I know you are not serious.

2. you might not like the results if I write the rules.

[atbarr]

Motion: Minimum pull in Production will be 3 pounds. for the first shot

Or

Motion: Minimum pull in Production will be 3 pounds for the first shot

[leas327]

Chuck, look what you started!

Rob

Dude, don't blame me I heard you were behind the XDm which is the root of all that is evil in Production. (and for all the tinfoil hat folks this is complete sarcasm)

The XDm, the whipping boy of all this. One company goes out of there way to make a better product for our game and we instantly slam the door in their face with a rule change. Thats really gonna hellp pull in corporate sponsoship. Heaven forbid we allow the thing and make other companies improve their product. Smith would do it, they already taylor most of their competion guns to work in IDPA. A small change in equipment would get them a little more market share. CZ already does. Seems to me Glock wouldn't care all that much as they have their own shooting sport and mandate all factory parts anyways.

The talk of an arms race or taking the mods away from the kitchen table and putting them in the factory has a little weight. But as long as the factory offers the parts who cares. The standard thing with a glock is buy it, shoot it, add sights and grip tape. Then try a guide rod and spring and do trigger work after that. If all the mods are going to get done anyway I would rather have an option to buy one already done. As long as the parts are available for others to upgrade their 17 or 22 I don't see a problem.

Some people are concerned about the new shooters. Last Feb. I was a new shooter but I didn't walk into this thing blind. I used this site and the USPSA's web site and had a very good idea what I was getting in to. Its pretty easy to sit back in your chair at your house and decide if you want to give something a try before you even leave the house. If you think Production Division is a beginners division think again. If it were, the rule would ban double belts, nice mag pouches and DOH. If it is a beginners division make everyone use real beginners equipment. The crap that is included with the gun at purchase or some of the lovely products that uncle mikes offers or the serpa lock holsters that flood the shelves at gun stores. That is beginners stuff and I bet I am not the only one here with some of it gathering dust in my basement.

Production is the best way for the OEM to showcase their product. This new rule doesn't help them and it doesn't help us. So what good is it.

[Chuck Anderson]

Don't care about the magnet too much, but that probably should go away.

Multiple mags in one pouch, again, probably not really right for Production.

Regarding the magnetic mag pouches in Production and Single Stack. The idea behind it was to try and cut down on the amount of race specific gear someone had to buy in either Division. Rather than make someone go out and buy 3-4 magnetic magazine pouches, and have them tote them around to each match that might have a table start, they were eliminated. I know Production and Single Stack are more greatly effected by the change than other divisions would be since you need to grab more mags. But that means you'd also need to buy more magnets. The idea behind both Divisions (at least in my, writing this at 4AM head) is to try and minimize the amount of competition specific gear you "have" to buy to be competetive.

Did you guys read 5.2.5.3?

Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a holster or magazine pouch, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the “Standby” command.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think that rule allows you to swap out mag pouches for a different type for a particular stage.....

If a production shooter wanted to run "all magnets, all the time" or to run one pouch as a magnet, I'm not seeing the issue....

Yeah, Nik we read it. And if you read my post you'll notice I didn't say anything about swapping out the pouches stage by stage. But I do know people now who carry the magnetic mag pouches (me being one of them) but only put them on if they look at the stages and there is an advantage. Before the match begins I can swap any gear I want.

[atbarr]

I think USPSA needs there own 'Tiger Team'.

[Chuck Anderson]

Chuck, look what you started!

Rob

Dude, don't blame me I heard you were behind the XDm which is the root of all that is evil in Production. (and for all the tinfoil hat folks this is complete sarcasm)

The XDm, the whipping boy of all this. One company goes out of there way to make a better product for our game and we instantly slam the door in their face with a rule change.

I'm guessing we know what you wear to keep the sun out of your eyes at the range? The rule was no more aimed at the XDm than it was at the Glock and M&P platforms. However, Rob has been picking on me since Nationals when he explained just how stupid I was to be shooting a 1:32 twist barrel with 147s. On the next to last stage. Like I hadn't figured that out after looking at 17 stages of sideways bullet impacts. All joking and inside jokes aside. I'm a Production guy through and through. Give the BOD some time to sort it out. It will either be a lot more clear or gone in the next month or two.

[Chuck Anderson]

I think USPSA needs there own 'Tiger Team'.

Does that mean we have to patronize prostitutes and porn stars, get beat up by our wives and play a little golf on the weekends?

[TGO]

About this change capacity in production. I was saying this just to draw attention to the fact that there are those who want it. I do not. Sorry if my saying it the way I did made it sound like I would want this.

The point is; Chuck started all this! He needs to get a tin hat so he can be as clear in his thinking as I am with mine.

Now any one reading all these pages has to see that the majority opinion, which is an important thing in a Democracy, leans heavily towards no 3lb. limit. As in all things, many will not like the fact that a majority decision will affect them. It works that way. I do not like the president but he is the president!

I like to shoot USPSA and particularly like the level of mods that are allowed in the production class. It is cheap and easy to get started and the guns are interesting when fixed up a little. It has it all!

The last thing I want is a box stock class. IPSC tries to do this and the class sucks! It promotes cheating and leans hard towards one type of gun. IDPA is way better than that and we are better than IDPA. That should get some people fired up! However, it should be noted that IDPA is popular because they have kept the guns simple, not necessarily cheap, but easy to get up to speed. The guns still look like guns.

Most new shooters go to a USPSA match and all they see is the one guy shooting the loud goofy looking OPen and Mod guns. He doesn't even realize there is a place for him and his new stockish gun. Here at our club, new shooters show up with production legal equipment and then load the mags fully placing them in limited. They just want to get thru the stages and don't care about the score.

The point is, unless you are ready too drink the punch at any organizations Christmas party, our rules even though they are flawed are currently the best, for equality across the board.

Is someone new not going to shoot USPSA because the trigger on their gun is NOT lighter than 3 lbs? I am willing to bet that most new shooters could pickup a 5 Lb. trigger and think it was too light.

Just for info purposes, I installed a set of springs in my nieces new XD monday and the trigger then weighed 3.5 lbs. Everyone who tried it thought it was lighter than that. If this thing gets smoother and lighter as she shoots it it will become too light under the new rule. I am sure this is the same for Glock and M&P.

Damn you Chuck!

Rob

[GrumpyOne]

How about this: If the new rules do go into effect in 2013 (I hope they don't!), boycott the Production Nationals. No one show up to shoot. I'm not saying boycott all the level 2 matches or area championships, just the nationals. If that doesn't let the BoD know our feelings, nothing will.

[Nik Habicht]

Don't care about the magnet too much, but that probably should go away.

Multiple mags in one pouch, again, probably not really right for Production.

Regarding the magnetic mag pouches in Production and Single Stack. The idea behind it was to try and cut down on the amount of race specific gear someone had to buy in either Division. Rather than make someone go out and buy 3-4 magnetic magazine pouches, and have them tote them around to each match that might have a table start, they were eliminated. I know Production and Single Stack are more greatly effected by the change than other divisions would be since you need to grab more mags. But that means you'd also need to buy more magnets. The idea behind both Divisions (at least in my, writing this at 4AM head) is to try and minimize the amount of competition specific gear you "have" to buy to be competetive.

Did you guys read 5.2.5.3?

Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a holster or magazine pouch, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the “Standby” command.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think that rule allows you to swap out mag pouches for a different type for a particular stage.....

If a production shooter wanted to run "all magnets, all the time" or to run one pouch as a magnet, I'm not seeing the issue....

Yeah, Nik we read it. And if you read my post you'll notice I didn't say anything about swapping out the pouches stage by stage. But I do know people now who carry the magnetic mag pouches (me being one of them) but only put them on if they look at the stages and there is an advantage. Before the match begins I can swap any gear I want.

Hmm -- o.k.

I've seen a friends mag change position on the single magnet he wears in the #1 position, and always considered that to be the significant drawback -- slightest bump, and you could alter the position of all mags, thereby changing your reload......

I still think you guys overthought that one, based on ability level and major match experience......

If the idea is to keep things affordable, this won't make a difference at the local level -- where production is being grown....

[atbarr]

I think USPSA needs there own 'Tiger Team'.

Does that mean we have to patronize prostitutes and porn stars, get beat up by our wives and play a little golf on the weekends?

Wrong Tiger.

[Sterling White]

Most new shooters go to a USPSA match and all they see is the one guy shooting the loud goofy looking OPen and Mod guns . He doesn't even realize there is a place for him and his new stockish gun. Here at our club, new shooters show up with production legal equipment and then load the mags fully placing them in limited. They just want to get thru the stages and don't care about the score.

Most new shooter have the deer in the headlights look at our local ranges too. And when asked what division they are shooting in they say production. Why - because its based on the gun. And when they get bumped to limited on the range by an RO the next "why" is asked. After a lengthy discussion on magazine capacity occurs the next "why" question is asked - why download to 10 when the mags can hold more? Silly rule! Ipsc got this part right.

BTW Robb....any loud goofy looking guns in your safe?

A 3lb pull is pretty light! My recommendation to a new shooter would be to keep the booger hook off the bang button until the sites are lined up otherwise ugly could happen.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Sterling White

[GrumpyOne]

And if the magnetic mag holders are being banned because of the so called "new shooters don't have all the money to buy the gear" argument, I submit that the magnetic holders are at least $15 cheaper than just about any mag pouch on the market today.

[RIIID]

I figured by now someone would have corrected Rob, almost instantly when somebody new calls a Division a class they are jumped on about it.

I guess I have to be the one, Rob it is a DIVISION not a Class. We all know your old and set in your ways so try to keep up.

Rich

[Chuck Anderson]

And if the magnetic mag holders are being banned because of the so called "new shooters don't have all the money to buy the gear" argument, I submit that the magnetic holders are at least $15 cheaper than just about any mag pouch on the market today.

But no one would just have the mag holder. They'd have to buy a regular one, and a magnetic one. Then carry both around and swap based on the match stages. That's the hitch.