Division 'modification' discussion

[Chuck Anderson]

My $.02. I see very little need to remove L-10 at this point. When you look at overall statistics of who is shooting what Division it varies greatly regionally. At least within Area 1 we don't have any states that have 10 round limitations. Yet there are still a lot of clubs that it's popular at, much more so than Limited, or really any other Division. My SWAG is it has more to do with top shooters and friends. What I normally see is if there is a top shooter in a Division, people will gravitate towards it to compete against him. If the top dog shoots Open, you'll have more Open shooters, same thing for Production or Limited.

The way I explain the Divisions to new shooters are Open and Limited are the Race Divisions. Limited is essentially Open with no comps/optics and .40 cal. The guns are still very expensive. The magazines are expensive. You pretty much have to reload for either and the equipment, holsters etc is identical.

Production and L-10 are the base Divisions. Production if your gun shoots 9mm, L10 if it shoots .40 or .45. L10 if you've already made a modification, i.e. painting the edge of your magwell. We bring in a lot of new shooters with .40 cal or .45 guns. It's easy to explain L10 to them. Load 10 rounds and have fun. They don't have to worry about expensive basepads, tuned magazines etc. Most would rather shoot for Major points then shoot a .45 and be scored Minor.

Single Stack and Revolver are more niche Divisions. If you want to shoot that specific gun, here is the Division for you. Neither has a broad base but both have very ardent followers.

As far as Open 10, Revo 8, Production 15, I don't see significant gains to justify adding them. I could be wrong and I'm always willing to hear the other side. Just don't think there is a big enough market to justify adding another Division to a crowded field.

[ima45dv8]

Maybe there's a very compelling argument for creating new divisions to recruit new members, but I haven't heard it yet.

What I would adamantly oppose is eliminating any division that even one current member enjoys.

[MarkCO]

Maybe there's a very compelling argument for creating new divisions to recruit new members, but I haven't heard it yet.

We call that "steel challenge". We have had more new shooters in SC than in the USPSA pistol matches. Several are getting the itch to shoot more than 5 rounds at a time so they are going to try out USPSA pistol.

[Jim Norman]

I shoot all 6 divisions, although I admit I do so rarely, I usually shoot L10 or Limited.

I personally like L10 for the challenge. Back say 10-12 years ago, there were a number of people shooting L10 with single stacks. I made C class that way in Limited or what was actually at the time a category called Standard so far as the scoring program was concerned.

L10 allows people to cover 2 divisions with one gun, take your SS add a few 170mm 10 rounders and off you go. Maybe that would make L10 palatable? L10 is SS with big sticks?

As for Open 10, Steel shooters have 10 round guns that are Open and they can't just cross over to any division now. Same with Revo, I am not looking so much at our current crop of shooters trying new divisions as I am thinking of those that shoot other sports that have guns that almost fit, but don't.

For Revo, I would not change to allow more than 6 rounds as it currently stands, too many guns go away. I would however allow 9 or maybe even 10 (is there such a Revo?) in Open Revo.

Let us have the BIG TENT here. Let us also be mindful of not destroying the divisions we already have.

SS is good as it is. maybe lighten up a little on dust covers and rails.

Production is good at 10 rounds.

L10 is good, but I can support SS with a big stick

Open is Open within very loose rules.

Open 10, I like the idea. I think that we COULD attract shooters from Steel to USPSA if we allowed them to use the gun they already have.

Limited is Open w/o a dot or comp and there is the caliber for major PF difference.

Revo is limiting our access to a lot of shooters. My opinion. We are ignoring an entire tier of ICORE shooters.

Will any of this happen? Doubtful

[SDM]

L-10 seems redundant.

We have a number of people who shoot L10 in this area. Some are from states with limitations but others simply want to be able to shoot a major caliber gun with stock mags. I think a couple just like shooting in a division with less competition. There are even a couple people who shoot L10 minor - no idea why.

Hi Powers ?

[twodownzero]

I think Limited-10 has far outlived its questionable usefulness in the first place. I had more to say but I'm going to leave it at that.

[lugnut]

I'm initially not keen on having other divisions at this time. We would just dilute the pool of shooters we have IMO and not really attract new shooters. Around here there are usually very few revo shooters (sadly) and SS and L10 are often pretty light as well.

[Maksim]

I would love to have Open 10, or anything that I can stay legal, yet stay competitive. If I want to shoot open, I would have to go to PA, and if you are a resident of a ban state, you are shooting your 10/15 rounds versus 30 round big sticks. It is easy to forget about us less fortunate in ban states if you live in free america, however I would venture to guess, there is a very large contingent of shooters in our states.

Same for Revo.

Production seems fine with 10 round mags....

Made add Standard division ala IPSC or something to allow a dot, but no comp, or whatever.... "reasonable" open guns.

Chuck, quite weird that you guys position L10 as a production major division.... out here... L10 really is Limited (svi/sti and my lonely Tanfo/CZ75 TS) with 10 round mags. Occasionally it is a single stack with +2 basepads and less so production major.

[badchad]

I say leave it alone, no more new divisions.

+1 (maybe +2, I think we have too many divisions now)

+3, L10 is especially reduntant IMO now that we have Single Stack.

[Unregistered]

I would love to have Open 10, or anything that I can stay legal, yet stay competitive. If I want to shoot open, I would have to go to PA, and if you are a resident of a ban state, you are shooting your 10/15 rounds versus 30 round big sticks. It is easy to forget about us less fortunate in ban states if you live in free america, however I would venture to guess, there is a very large contingent of shooters in our states.

Same for Revo.

Production seems fine with 10 round mags....

Made add Standard division ala IPSC or something to allow a dot, but no comp, or whatever.... "reasonable" open guns.

Chuck, quite weird that you guys position L10 as a production major division.... out here... L10 really is Limited (svi/sti and my lonely Tanfo/CZ75 TS) with 10 round mags. Occasionally it is a single stack with +2 basepads and less so production major.

I would also love to have Open 10 - since all open up here in Canada is open 10! It's why we are not competitive at an international level. If there was a USPSA Open 10, more of us Canadians shooting open can travel down and shoot in your matches!

IPSC Standard division doesn't allow for dots. There WAS an IPSC modified division which was basically open division with a physical size limit, but even that is gone now - they removed it.

Strange, removing a division that whilst not exactly well populated, that people still shot - and more importantly, had a lot of money invested in. But that's the IPSC and neither here nor there in this discussion!

[Maksim]

Modified, yes, that is what I am thinking... they removed it? Was looking at a few Limcats made just for that division, gorgeous guns.

[Matt Cheely]

I like the idea of loading more rounds in production guns. Make it 15 and you still keep almost all of the current prod guns viable, but makes it closer to IPSC production. More rounds is always fun.

[jar]

I don't buy the arguments that lack of some division is keeping shooters away. Is there really a shooter out there with an open revolver or an open steel gun who doesn't also own something competitive in one of USPSA's existing divisions?

I live in a ban state and shoot production, so it's hard for me to separate my personal reasons for wanting it to stay at 10 from general reasons. That said, I definitely think a mag length ammo limit in production is a bad idea. It'll turn in to a capacity race, just like IPSC production used to be. If you want to load 'em up, I think bumping the limit from 10 to 15 would be the way to do it.

I was all for dropping L10 until I brought out some new shooters with Glocks in 40/45/10mm. Now I see L10's role as production major.

ETA: even living in a ban state, I'd have no interest in Open-10. 6 divisions is already too many, but it's hard to eliminate existing divisions because someone shoots them. Let's not make the problem worse.

Edited December 5, 2011 by jar

[badchad]

I like the idea of loading more rounds in production guns. Make it 15 and you still keep almost all of the current prod guns viable, but makes it closer to IPSC production. More rounds is always fun.

+1 for that too.

[shred]

Modified!

Realistically though, we already have a ton of divisions and it will always be possible to find something that doesn't qualify for or be competitive in any division. At some point we have to say "these are the divisions. 90% of all pistols made can be reasonably competitive in one of them. The remaining 10% of you can use this as an excuse to buy another gun"

[Chuck D]

...8 plus years later, same old argument.

...the rationale is if you live in a capacity restricted State it's your fault and too bad if you can't possess standard capacity mags to be competitive nationally.

The fact of the matter is no organization should require its membership to break the law to be competitive. That applies specifically to Production and L10 competitors in capacity restricted States. This rationality also applies locally because there will always be a component of the membership that is ready, willing, and able to break the law to be competitive and "rule the roost" locally by possessing illegal magazines, pay a kings ransom for pre-ban mags or build new ones from parts.

2nd fact...the last USPSA match I competed in and the last time I renewed my membership was 2004 primarily because of this very argument. My position was and still is that USPSA made a committment to its membership in capacity restricted States with L10 and Production Division was designed NOT to be a "spray and pray" division but one where every shot counted and you had 10 to work with. In addition the 10 round limit negated the "arms race" we saw in IPSC plus had the distinct advantage of making everyone regardless of State residency competitive nationally. Production Division is an absolute success, why tinker with it ?

3rd fact...economics. I purchased a 4th Gen G17 for $499.00. It came with 3 magazines. I bought 4 more 10 round mags from BoTach Tactical for $19.99 each. Roughly $580.00 for the entire package and it's competitive in USPSA Production Division and IDPA SSP/ESP Divisions. in 2004 I had more than $650.00 invested in 5 SVI pre-ban magazines alone. You want to increase or keep membership...you craft and implement rules that make it legal and affordable for people to compete.

If USPSA eliminated L10 and/or increases the capacity of Production Division past 10 rounds max I simply will not renew my membership again. There are tons of "outlaw matches" around to compete in plus IDPA so my dollars and capacity restricted equipment will be welcomed there.

Lessons have not been learned...yet.

P.S. Leave the Revo guys and gals alone too !!!

[Adam B]

Matt Cheely, on 05 December 2011 - 06:15 PM, said:

I like the idea of loading more rounds in production guns. Make it 15 and you still keep almost all of the current prod guns viable, but makes it closer to IPSC production. More rounds is always fun.

+2

Edited December 6, 2011 by boynty77

[Chuck D]

I like the idea of loading more rounds in production guns. Make it 15 and you still keep almost all of the current prod guns viable, but makes it closer to IPSC production. More rounds is always fun.

Why revert to "almost" when you already have all ?

[z40acp]

Most of the time we come out to shoot at least twice. So L-10 is a great way to shoot two divisions with the same equipment. Either SS/ L-10 or Limited/ L-10. I like the idea of increasing Prod. mags to 15 also. I believe some people change out of Production for more capacity. I might not like the change if I lived in a restricted state though.

Edited December 6, 2011 by z40acp

[beltjones]

I think the first step is to determine what is the goal of altering the divisions. Is it to give current members an alternative to what they already shoot, or is it to attract new members?

Then depending on what the goal is you need to weigh the alternatives for accomplishing that goal. If we're trying to attract new membership, then we need to determine where are the big pockets of potential new members, which particular groups are most likely to join, the impact the change will have on current and future corporate sponsorship, whether the changes will alienate current members, and so on.

My feeling is that these are important questions that need an extensive fact base developed before changes should be made. It's also my opinion that the current divisions have not been promoted to potential new members nearly as well as they could be. I would start there and only start to tweak divisions if absolutely necessary to reach a particular sizable segment of the shooting public.

[MAShooter]

Combining participation from 5 of the local clubs here in a restricted state (Massachusetts), using the last couple of matches from these clubs:

Participation from the last few monthly matches between 5 MA clubs

Production = 169

Limited = 121

Open = 99

Limited-10 = 30

Single Stk = 41

Revolver = 11

And participation numbers for our Area match for Area 7 (of which MA is a part of):

Production = 61

Limited = 46

Open = 37

Limited-10 = 19

Single Stk = 10

Revolver = 9

Clearly Production is a resounding success. At our club, most of the new shooters we get are competing in Production (this is a fact - from the guy who does the scores). Why would anyone want to change that? Is there a particular problem that's looking for a solution?

Production w/ 15 round mags? How about Limited-Minor? Doesn't that cover it?

Area 1 participation (reported by someone earlier as an Area with no 'Restricted' states)

Open = 101

Limited = 90

Production = 68

Limited-10 = 41

Single Stk = 21

Revolver = 15

So comparing a 'Restricted' Area (A7) to a 'Non-Restricted' Area (A1), the most popular division co-insides with magazine capacity restrictions (or lack of restrictions).

A1 also had participation in Limited-10 that was almost 1/2 the participation of Limited - a very respectable presence. And there was 114 Limited-10 shooters registered for Nationals. Doesn't sound like a dead division to me.

A simple solution for those who don't like a particular division - don't shoot it. Seems like a better alternative than eliminating it.

Some folks either keep forgetting, or don't care that there are several states that still have this sucky mag capacity issue - what possible good to the organization can come from reducing/eliminating the 10 round divisions? We should be looking at ways to increase participation - not reduce it. If there was an Open-10 (and Revo-Open) division, I'm sure we'd see a decent amount of competitors in it. Why would creating the possibility (likelihood) of adding to our ranks be a bad thing?

[ima45dv8]

A simple solution for those who don't like a particular division - don't shoot it. Seems like a better alternative than eliminating it.

A simple and elegant solution.

[D.Hayden]

I like the idea of loading more rounds in production guns. Make it 15 and you still keep almost all of the current prod guns viable, but makes it closer to IPSC production. More rounds is always fun.

There's about 6 states so far that don't allow that? Unfortunately.. I doubt that number will decrease. And as soon as you make it 15, why not 17 or 18? 15 is just as arbitrary.

And, I have to guess, that's the only IPSC rule anyone ever wants to change too - lol

[CZinSC]

Split Limited into Limited Major and Limited Minor. No need for rule changes, Limited Major and Limited Minor rules would be carbon copy of the existing Limited rules, just with a PF stipulation.

Leave Production at 10 round max capacity.

The new Limited Minor would allow those that want to load up their Production gun mags ( probably a 9mm ) and have a division to play in...competitively.

States that have 10 round restrictions? You still have Production and L-10 to play in.

[Supermoto]

Dump L-10, there is no reason for it. If you live in a ban state, just shoot with 10 rounds mags in Limited

No need for Open-10, same deal. You want to shoot open, shoot with 10 round mags.

Production capacity should be based on the capacity from the factory. Spare me the equipment race story, Why should I have to dumb down my gun because you bought an inferior one.

Revolver, Meh

SS, should be allowed to shoot with 10 rds major, dump the only 8 rounds from one location and bump round to 50. Lets just shoot