Division 'modification' discussion

[old506]

If I could change it:

Score Limited 10 Minor (for the ban states)

Production goes to 15 rounds.

[GeorgeInNePa]

We had discussions like this before and there was a lot of support for modifying Production to allow greater than 10 round mags, BUT that is not what I am suggesting!.

I think there would be a lot of support for another division 99.9% like Production, EXCEPT there would be not be a 10 round restriction on mags. There would only be a mag length restriction. Every other production rule would remain. There would not be any equipment race as most production guns sold today have larger capacity mags from the factory. No scoring changes, no other rules changes! Pretty easy to create. This would not affect stage design either. Fairly easy code change to scoring software.

I would guess you would see an increase in Production overall. If you think about, it would actually be cheaper and more fun to shoot for a lot of people. Production itself would not change. You would actually reduce the equipment needed!

Let the comments begin....

They already have that, it's called Limited Minor.

I want a special Division for Moderately Good Looking Fat Obnoxious Bastards.

Then, when too many others shoot that Division and I can no longer win, I will want a new Division for Moderately Good Looking Fat Obnoxious Bastards with Purple Socks...

[GeorgeInNePa]

I like the idea of loading more rounds in production guns. Make it 15 and you still keep almost all of the current prod guns viable, but makes it closer to IPSC production. More rounds is always fun.

This, I can agree with.

[Jim Norman]

Production at 10 rounds allows virtually every DA/Striker gun to fit, You can shoot your Sig, XD, about any glock but an 18, Beretta, SW in any caliber. We have people shoot Production in 9mm .357sig, 40, and 45. They all fit 10 rounds. Change the capacity and a lot of guns cease to fit. Not everyone can just go get another one.

L10 is alive as pointed out above. Open 10 would be if it existed. The only questionable division is Revo and it is so small it really doesn't make a difference. I'd look at Revo Open to see if it added any shooters. Make it a one year provisional, everyone shoots heads up, no classifications. If we get more activity extend the trial if we get none, dump it. I think we could promote it.

As some else said, if yo don't like the division, shoot a different one.

Want know who is best on a given day? Get your club to post the combined results. Sure they are unofficial, so what.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Split Limited into Limited Major and Limited Minor. No need for rule changes, Limited Major and Limited Minor rules would be carbon copy of the existing Limited rules, just with a PF stipulation.

Leave Production at 10 round max capacity.

The new Limited Minor would allow those that want to load up their Production gun mags ( probably a 9mm ) and have a division to play in...competitively.

States that have 10 round restrictions? You still have Production and L-10 to play in.

Maybe Production10 and Production15 instead?

[Maksim]

I do wonder, if we had a "for shits and giggles" Open 10 match, how many folks would come shoot it, or how many more people would shoot Open.

I can easily see alot more Open guns based on production guns such as M&P's, glocks, etc.

Alot easier to play if you don't have to spend $100 on a magazine.

[Supermoto]

Production at 10 rounds allows virtually every DA/Striker gun to fit, You can shoot your Sig, XD, about any glock but an 18, Beretta, SW in any caliber. We have people shoot Production in 9mm .357sig, 40, and 45. They all fit 10 rounds. Change the capacity and a lot of guns cease to fit. Not everyone can just go get another one.

Want know who is best on a given day? Get your club to post the combined results. Sure they are unofficial, so what.

They can still shoot with their 10 round guns? The restriction is a maximum, but not a requirement. Those guns still are allow and fit. And true, some people will not be able to afford a more competitive gun, but some can not afford to practice... should they get their own division. This is a game that requires equipment. you want to win, bring the best skill and right equipment

[BritinUSA]

The only change I would make at this time would be to increase Production division to 15.

[Maksim]

I do wonder, if we had a "for shits and giggles" Open 10 match, how many folks would come shoot it, or how many more people would shoot Open.

I can easily see alot more Open guns based on production guns such as M&P's, glocks, etc.

Alot easier to play if you don't have to spend $100 on a magazine.

ok, I decided to satisfy my own curiosity and posted this question to a NJ gun community, of whom a number shoot matches, steel, IDPA, USPSA, etc.

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/29595-theoretical-uspsa-question-for-those-currently-shooting-and-non-shooters/page__fromsearch__1

Will be interesting to see.

[CZinSC]

Split Limited into Limited Major and Limited Minor. No need for rule changes, Limited Major and Limited Minor rules would be carbon copy of the existing Limited rules, just with a PF stipulation.

Leave Production at 10 round max capacity.

The new Limited Minor would allow those that want to load up their Production gun mags ( probably a 9mm ) and have a division to play in...competitively.

States that have 10 round restrictions? You still have Production and L-10 to play in.

Maybe Production10 and Production15 instead?

Nice...I like the way you think. Except, if you're going to open up the mag limits, just make it: "Production 10" and "Production". In "Production" you can load whatever your mags can hold. The gun still has to fit in the box, so you won't get the crazy 33 round after market mags, but if your gun can hold 15, load 15, if it holds 18...load 18!

[bbbean]

I say leave it alone, no more new divisions.

+1 (maybe +2, I think we have too many divisions now)

+3, L10 is especially reduntant IMO now that we have Single Stack.

I couldn't disagree more (well, I could, but the mods would shut me down). In addition to being an established division with it's own substantial pool of participants, Lim 10 is a good fit for;

Shooters with Production-style guns in major calibers (lots of new shooters fit this category)

Shooters in states with mag capacity limits

Limited and SS shooters looking for a second division to shoot for re-shoots

Limited and SS shooters who want to shoot more than one division at Nationals

Limited and SS shooters who want to use their existing equipment for a different competitive challenge

Shooters who don't like having 4 or 2 fingers left over when they count rounds between reloads

As far as redundancy goes, running my custom 6" SV with ghost holster and mags under my belly button is not the same thing as running a 1911 with 8 rounds out of a holster and mag pouches behind the hip bone. No redundancy there.

[ima45dv8]

Split Limited into Limited Major and Limited Minor. No need for rule changes, Limited Major and Limited Minor rules would be carbon copy of the existing Limited rules, just with a PF stipulation.

I feel like I'm missing something. Don't we already have that?

When I register for Limited at a match I have to declare (stipulate) either Major or Minor power factor. What would change?

[Skydiver]

Split Limited into Limited Major and Limited Minor. No need for rule changes, Limited Major and Limited Minor rules would be carbon copy of the existing Limited rules, just with a PF stipulation.

I feel like I'm missing something. Don't we already have that?

When I register for Limited at a match I have to declare (stipulate) either Major or Minor power factor. What would change?

Mark, I think that Glenn is looking for competitors shooting minor to win their stage points without being graded on the curve against those shooting major.

I don't agree with Glenn's idea, but let's say a shooter shooting this new Limited Major division doesn't make power factor, do they get bumped to Open?

Personally, I think that Limited should stay unified and people shooting major and minor PFs need to compete against each other just like they do in the other divisions.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

I say leave it alone, no more new divisions.

+1 (maybe +2, I think we have too many divisions now)

+3, L10 is especially reduntant IMO now that we have Single Stack.

I couldn't disagree more (well, I could, but the mods would shut me down). In addition to being an established division with it's own substantial pool of participants, Lim 10 is a good fit for;

Shooters with Production-style guns in major calibers (lots of new shooters fit this category)

Shooters in states with mag capacity limits

Limited and SS shooters looking for a second division to shoot for re-shoots

Limited and SS shooters who want to shoot more than one division at Nationals

Limited and SS shooters who want to use their existing equipment for a different competitive challenge

Shooters who don't like having 4 or 2 fingers left over when they count rounds between reloads

As far as redundancy goes, running my custom 6" SV with ghost holster and mags under my belly button is not the same thing as running a 1911 with 8 rounds out of a holster and mag pouches behind the hip bone. No redundancy there.

And L10 also provides a division for single action, double stack guns who would be at a severe capacity disadvantage if they were shooting .45 ACP instead of .40. Additionally, there are single stack guns that are not John Browning designs that can play in L10, but be at a severe disadvantage in Limited.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

I'm curious... for those who say that adding more division "dilutes" the competition, are you saying that because:

1. If matches give out cash awards, the awards are based on the number of competitors in the division. Less people in a particular division means less people to take money from?

2. Sanction USPSA matches require a minimum of 5 people competing in that division for official recognition (Rule 6.2.2 and Appendix A2)? If people who currently compete in your division leave for another division, you won't have enough to have your division recognized? Consider that the other division will probably not have enough, either.

3. It's harder to tell how an individual places overall when there are more divisions to compare against? Remember that USPSA competitions are between people in the same division. (Principle 3, and Rule 9.2.5) Consider, that people can always request for the unofficial overall results if it's important to see relative standings.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Skydiver

[technetium-99m]

Production is a success story, leave it alone. The impression I got was that IPSC shooters wanted the capacity dropped to 15. 10 is a great number that allows people in ban states to compete and it's easier for an RO to keep track of than 15 rounds.

I might could see eliminating the 6 round limit in revo for minor PF guns, that may give the ICORE limited guys a place to play without obsoleting all the 625's people have been shooting for years.

The divisions largely work with a vast majority of factory offerings fitting neatley into one or more divisions, lets not go out of our way to mess that up.

[twodownzero]

The last time I shot a match in New Jersey, I was the only single stack shooter. I will leave it to the reader's imagination as to what the other shooters were shooting at the match.

[chendersby]

I might could see eliminating the 6 round limit in revo for minor PF guns, that may give the ICORE limited guys a place to play without obsoleting all the 625's people have been shooting for years.

Now that is an interesting idea.

[ima45dv8]

Split Limited into Limited Major and Limited Minor. No need for rule changes, Limited Major and Limited Minor rules would be carbon copy of the existing Limited rules, just with a PF stipulation.

I feel like I'm missing something. Don't we already have that?

When I register for Limited at a match I have to declare (stipulate) either Major or Minor power factor. What would change?

Mark, I think that Glenn is looking for competitors shooting minor to win their stage points without being graded on the curve against those shooting major.

I don't agree with Glenn's idea, but let's say a shooter shooting this new Limited Major division doesn't make power factor, do they get bumped to Open?

Personally, I think that Limited should stay unified and people shooting major and minor PFs need to compete against each other just like they do in the other divisions.

And if that is Glenn's suggestion (I'll wait for his confirmation), specifically, that Limited Minor should stand as a separate division without consideration of Limited Major, I'd have to ask just what other division(s) should enjoy such a distinction between the available power factors? Is the proposal that we should now allow separate scoring of five new divisions based solely on PF?

I'll add my vote right now....No.

You can currently shoot Major or Minor, but with the exception of Production division, that is a competitors' choice. To allow new divisional scoring based on power factor would ignore the Power component of "Diligentia-Vis-Celeritas".

I'd fight that change to the finish.

DVC still counts for something.

[Cy Soto]

The only change I would make at this time would be to increase Production division to 15.

I agree! I too would like to see the Production magazine capacity to be increased to 15.

[PistoleroJesse]

The fact of the matter is no organization should require its membership to break the law to be competitive.

Different states have different hunting laws... not the quite the same just saying

I think with careful crafting of new classifiers to make it so mag capacity over 10 is no advantage (mandatory mag changes are the norm for most classifiers I've shot anyways) and some pruning of old ones, we could probably get rid of Limited 10 and cap Production at 15 rounds.

If you normally travel from a tyrannical common-wealth to a free-state, make buddies or keep some tuned mags in a safe deposit box just over state lines. Serious competitors will find a way to make it work, people who only shoot local will still be relevant nationally with classifiers.

Edited December 6, 2011 by PistoleroJesse

[Maksim]

The fact of the matter is no organization should require its membership to break the law to be competitive.

Different states have different hunting laws... not the quite the same just saying

I think with careful crafting of new classifiers to make it so mag capacity over 10 is no advantage (mandatory mag changes are the norm for most classifiers I've shot anyways) and some pruning of old ones, we could probably get rid of Limited 10 and cap Production at 15 rounds.

If you normally travel from a tyrannical common-wealth to a free-state, make buddies or keep some tuned mags in a safe deposit box just over state lines. Serious competitors will find a way to make it work, people who only shoot local will still be relevant nationally with classifiers.

And what about major matches? Should we buy mags and have them shipped to the hotel so we can use them there?

[ima45dv8]

If you normally travel from a tyrannical common-wealth to a free-state, make buddies or keep some tuned mags in a safe deposit box just over state lines. Serious competitors will find a way to make it work, people who only shoot local will still be relevant nationally with classifiers.

Please adopt someone within one of those tyrannical states, track your investment to try to 'stage' mags in those locations for a reasonable number of the major matches available, and let us know how that works out for you.

[Chuck Anderson]

The only change I would make at this time would be to increase Production division to 15.

I agree! I too would like to see the Production magazine capacity to be increased to 15.

OK, so let's look at this. What does changing to 15 actually do? It obsoletes several guns, some shooters equipment, and will probably piss some folks off. That's the downside. What do we get in return for this? 5 extra rounds in the magazine. Most stages are going to 8 round neutral. Which means that unless it's a rare 12-16 round stage you're still going to have to reload. You're probably going to have to reload every time you move anyway, you're just throwing mags on the ground with more ammo. You're still going to have new people, and probably people that have been doing it for awhile who want to load their magazines all the way up and don't understand why they can't when it's only one or two more rounds.

I've heard three options for capacity change.

Leave it 10 round

Open it all the way up (20+round Production guns)

Or cap it at another arbitrary number, 15, 16 whatever.

When I look at a rule change I view it the same way I view a negotiation. If I'm giving up something I want a return. We can screw with Production rules till the cows come home. Make changes every couple years. But if there is a change we should have it accomplish a goal. IPSC instituted a 15 round limit as a way to deal with Production guns that were coming from the factory with longer grips, or magazines, just to increase capacity. They were seeing 20+ rounds in Production. When they went to 15 it was a way to control that. And it was an easier decision to make. They went down in capacity. No guns currently in use were any less viable for Production. Sure some weren't as competetive if you consider they went from having a 3 round advantage to no advantage but it didn't make them useless.

For USPSA to go up we would be making guns that are currently viable, not anymore. Heck I think there's even a thread on here about someone shooting Production with an 8 shot Revo. Not the best but still reasonably fun. Tell him he's now up against guys with 16 rounds in the gun and I think that will change.

I guess for me if there is a group of current Production shooters, or folks that really want to switch to Production, but just won't because of the 10 round rule, I'd like to hear why. What advantage, or new pool of shooters, do we gain opening it to 15 rounds to make up for the loss of the competetive equality that Production gives us. And make no mistake, that's what Production is about.

[Chuck Anderson]

Chuck, quite weird that you guys position L10 as a production major division.... out here... L10 really is Limited (svi/sti and my lonely Tanfo/CZ75 TS) with 10 round mags. Occasionally it is a single stack with +2 basepads and less so production major.

This is another one that varies regionally. We've had at least one, if not two National L10 Champions win with essentially Production guns with a couple of cheap mods. I'm not saying L10 is DA only like Production. The entry costs are generally a lot lower though. The magazines are cheaper, no uber massaged 22 round .40 mags needed, just something that'll feed 10 rounds reliably. The difference between someone shooting a Glock 21 and an STI Edge is a lot less than someone shooting the same gun against the Edge loaded up with 9 more rounds than the .45 holds. Like I said, Production and L10 are the two that I try to get new people into first. Both will allow a basically stock gun to compete rather well. If someone has a minor DA gun, shoot Production. If there are some mods, or it's major, or it's SA, shoot L10. Once you get your feet wet, then you can shell out 6-700 bucks for magazines.