Division 'modification' discussion

[lugnut]

40 in for production is not the caliber of choice for production.

Have you ever shot 40 minor? May be more expensive... but it's definitely a good choice!

[Supermoto]

Absolutely.

At least in the ban states.

Take your basic glock 17, m&P, whatever. By having 10 rounds, you eliminate the need for big sticks, $$$$$$ a piece. You can afford to slap on a delta point on the rear sight, put a threaded barrel and comp and voila, you are competitive.

Right now, I shoot Lim 10 and SS, and dabbled in Production. I would love to shoot Open, but with NJ's limits, I am just not competitive against people who are choosing not to follow local laws, or when I go out of state to compete in sectional, area, or national match.

Telling someone to move out of state just to be competitive in USPSA is ludicrous, as is telling someone to go buy a mag to shoot out of state and throw it away because it is not legal at home.

You can do that now, No one is stopping you from shooting open with 15 rounds. And if you look at the local scores, the same people are at the top no matter what division they shoot because it has more to do with skill than round count. But now everyone has to dumb down their equipment so a few don't feel left out. We have to add more divisions because a few live in an oppressive state. There are 2 states that have a strict limit on round count. 2 out of 50, How many people are going to shoot Open 10 regularly out of those 2 states... probably 0.

[Unregistered]

With the upcoming IPSC World Shoot in Florida, shouldn't USPSA clubs start heading towards IPSC rules if only just for the WS?

No bias here, we're stuck with one system up North

[beltjones]

We have a laissez faire division or two already, and we have divisions that are very heavily legislated in order to create some kind of competitive equity.

If you want to load up your mags to your heart's content, go shoot Open or Limited. Otherwise, if you shoot production, I really don't see why this particular rule is your stumbling block. I'm sure a lot of people still have a bad taste in their mouths over the original reason for 10 round mags, but at this point we should be way past that. Production as a division is a resounding success, so unless hard data shows why it would be more successful with vastly changed rules I think it should be left alone.

I still haven't heard a reason to go to 15 rounds other than, "I'm still mad about the original "high cap" magazine ban."

Production - with it's capacity constraints, equipment requirements, minor-only scoring, et al - is a tremendous test of shooting skill that has a very distinct flavor from the rest of USPSA. Clearly it has a strong appeal for those who have chosen to stick with it, and it offers USPSA the opportunity to offer something to the crowd who sees the sport as nothing but optics, compensators, and race holsters. Forcing it to revert to the feel of the other divisions simply kills the product portfolio diversification that USPSA has so far successfully achieved.

I'm not a revo shooter so I'm not qualified to comment on adjustments to that division; however, I think it would be really cool to change L10 so that folks shooting minor can load their magazines to 15 rounds. That would be a very cool division, it would bring back the Hi-Powers, and it would be a great catch-all for virtually anyone coming out for their first match.

[Schutzenmeister]

I'm going to stay out of this whole 10-15 round production and/or Open 10 thing. I can see too many sides to the arguments, though I tend to agree we have TOO MANY divisions as it is. (Personal opinion.)

I would like to point out an easy change that could, and perhaps should be made in Revolver. Currently, IPSC rules treat the 7th or 8th round fired differently than we do in USPSA. In IPSC, the extra rounds get you a penalty for each shot fired over 6 without a reload. I think that's an improvement over our system where the 7th shot fired gives you a one-way ticket to Open!

Better still ... I would like to see BOTH systems (IPSC and USPSA) go to a Major/minor based on capacity decision, similar to USPSA SS and the new IPSC Classic Division. Revolvers with 6 round (or less) capacity are eligible to declare Major. If your wheel gun holds 7 or 8, the most you can claim is minor. Personally, I think that would be a significant improvement and could result in some wheel guns being used without fear in USPSA (or IPSC) matches. I know I'd like to shoot my 627 in Revolver, but the potential sanction of a one-way trip to Open is too sevre to make it worth the risk. Hence, my 627 is relegated to ICORE matches.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Schutzenmeister

[Jaxshooter]

There are some hardcore ICORE shooters that would participate if they could use the same equipment that they use in ICORE.

[No.343]

The only change that revolver division needs is removing the round count restrictions. Let the chrono say whether you are shooting major or minor. If I can take the pounding of major rounds out of a 627, then I should be scored as major. Isn't that what DVC is all about?

[wgnoyes]

With the upcoming IPSC World Shoot in Florida, shouldn't USPSA clubs start heading towards IPSC rules if only just for the WS?

No bias here, we're stuck with one system up North

Uh.... no.

[Nik Habicht]

Allowing 15-round magazines in Production will allow new shooters to shoot in Production without the need to purchase any more magazines than what already comes with their gun (pistols are more often sold with 3 magazines these days),

And those guns shipping with two or three mags will be ideally suited to take on a 32 round field course, consisting of 4 8 round positions, or of fun breakdowns like 2-8-5-6-7-4, where the 5 is a Texas Star.......

we can make this Division a true test of shooting skill

By giving folks more "make-up rounds" for misses between reloads.....

and not one of "who can reload the quickest",

Most winning production shooters reload on the move -- so the quickness of the reload tends to be a non-factor 95+% of the time......

it would attract shooters from other Divisions who's equipment is not as competitive in said Division; for example, a bunch of folks who are shooting Limited Minor with 5" M&P or Glock 34 knowing that it is impossible for them to place well against those shooting STI/SVI platforms

Folks who could already shoot production under existing rules, you mean, by loading to ten?

it would bring this Division closer to what the rest of the World shoots/call Production, and I can think of a few others but I am going to leave it at this for now.

And the world matters to most of us, why, when it comes to this sport?

Production, at least in Area 8, appears to be virtually tied with Open and Limited at major matches, in free states, for popularity....

Actually looking at stats from Area matches and Sectionals in 2011, Production is either tied with the other big two, or in close third at most of those matches. Do we really want to tinker with something that isn't broken, in an attempt to further homogenize what is a very distinct division at the moment?

As to pissing off only a few folks -- keep in mind that some of those folks have been supporting this division for a decade, while also putting matches on the ground, working as range officials, etc.

Do we really want to alienate a significant portion of the contributors?

[Nik Habicht]

Let's see.. how many USPSA shooters are in ban states? CA, MA, NY, NJ, etc. I bet a bunch. I guess we could all just switch to SS or Revo.

Not sure about the other states but California doesn't seem to have much problem fielding top shooters in Open and Limited as is.

IIRC, CA also grandfathered a bunch of mags.....

NJ for one did not.....

[ima45dv8]

As to pissing off only a few folks -- keep in mind that some of those folks have been supporting this division for a decade, while also putting matches on the ground, working as range officials, etc.

Do we really want to alienate a significant portion of the contributors?

Again....No.

[Nik Habicht]

The 15 round is a fix for a non-existant problem. It is mostly given by those who dont want to reload as much. Its part of the game!!! If you dont like reloading, then load up your mags and shoot Limited. If you want to learn how to handle your gun and how to manipulate it well, as well as learn how to break down stages a little differently than the "hose'em as you see'em" then download the mags to 10 rounds and have a good time in Production.

It has nothing to do with not wanting to reload, at least for me. The 10 round limit came about because of the AWB, Most of the country has seen how ridiculous this restriction was, expect for a couple of states and uspsa. Production should allow what ever round count came with the gun

By that logic we should only allow flush-fit mags in all divisions.....

[Maksim]

Your comments are based on senseless ideas, please explain.

You can do that now, No one is stopping you from shooting open with 15 rounds. And if you look at the local scores, the same people are at the top no matter what division they shoot because it has more to do with skill than round count.

Yes, we can shoot with 15 rounds now, however what about those that are not following the laws? We are at a disadvantage. Take two shooters same skill, give one guy a 30 round mag, another guy a 10 round mag. Is it a disadvantage to have to reload 2 more times to shoot the same amount of rounds? Yes or No?

But now everyone has to dumb down their equipment so a few don't feel left out.

Who is everyone? Do you dumb down your STI/SVI to 8 rounds so that the single stack guys have a chance? Do you dumb down your gun to 6 rounds so the revolver guys stand a chance?

You are only competing against the same division, so if you dont like revo, you don't shoot it, you don't like Lim 10? Don't shoot it. You don't like Open 10, don't shoot it.

Please explain how would Open guys have to dumb down their equipment so that some people can legally shoot Open 10 in their state?

We have to add more divisions because a few live in an oppressive state. There are 2 states that have a strict limit on round count. 2 out of 50, How many people are going to shoot Open 10 regularly out of those 2 states... probably 0.

There are more states than that. Once again, you do not have to shoot it. Do I suppose you also do not see a point in Limited 10?

I am shooting USPSA and am involved as much as I am BECAUSE OF the availability of divisions such as Single Stack and Limited 10. I have introduced over 30 people to USPSA who are active participants, and the reason why some of or matches hit 90+, who shoot because of Production and Limited 10. I wold love to shoot Open, I would for shits and giggles shoot Open 15 in regular open division, but I know I am at a disadvantage if I am shooting legal mags in other states and matches.

We have more people shooting Limited 10 at the local matches than we do shooting revolver and single stack. I would venture to guess if Open 10 became a recognized vision, (not even asking for a national match, but a Area or Sectional would be awesome) would draw a good amount of people.

How is having a choice in what division to shoot a problem for anyone? How is having Limited 10 a problem in Texas or in Florida? So why would Open 10 be?

Edited December 6, 2011 by Maksim

[ima45dv8]

With the upcoming IPSC World Shoot in Florida, shouldn't USPSA clubs start heading towards IPSC rules if only just for the WS?

Uh.... no.

Not "no", but Hell No.

Jeff, a WS in this region is not going to affect the masses. We have at least 5,000 active shooters in USPSA and what(?), maybe 100-200 slots, if that??

If a given club decides to run IPSC rules to prepare for this or another IPSC-regulated event, good for them -- if that's what their customers desire.

[Chuck Anderson]

Since it came up we actually looked at the numbers nationwide this weekend. Limited is the most popular division, number two is not Open, it's Production. It's not that far behind Limited.

The only argument I've seen that holds water is that 10 round limits require the purchase of additional magazines. I can buy that and it's a legitimate point. The flip side to that is there are substantial number of Production shooters that own 10 round magazines. Either bought during the ban, or after because they are dirt cheap. I would imagine it'd be about even between the number of existing shooters who needed to buy new magazines and the number of new shooters who could get through a stage with three magazines at 15 rounds.

Forget who but someone also brought up that every competition shooter he knows owns multiple guns. First, not sure if existing competition shooters should be the targeted market. While I certainly appreciate the folks already shooting, just shuffling them around from Division to Division doesn't gain the sport anything. Bringing in new shooters does. I would imagine the population of folks who aren't competition shooters, but might be, and only possess one handgun would be significantly higher. I personally know hundreds. Not a made up number either. There are an awful lot of LEO's who only own a duty gun. There are also a lot of normal folks who purchased handguns in recent years who have never shot with us. Be nice if we could draw in some of the hundred thousand plus people who bought guns on Black Friday.

[Maksim]

Chuck, are there stats readily avail about the number of USPSA members by region, or by state? Ie BAN States vs Free America?

[lugnut]

Revolvers with 6 round (or less) capacity are eligible to declare Major. If your wheel gun holds 7 or 8, the most you can claim is minor. Personally, I think that would be a significant improvement and could result in some wheel guns being used without fear in USPSA (or IPSC) matches. I know I'd like to shoot my 627 in Revolver, but the potential sanction of a one-way trip to Open is too sevre to make it worth the risk. Hence, my 627 is relegated to ICORE matches.

I like this idea. I don't have an 8 shooter because as you say, it's really not good in USPSA (or IDPA) which are my primary games. However this makes sense to me. It's similar to SS where you can have 8 rounds in major 45 or 10 with 9 minor. I know a few guys that shoot SS minor. They get two extra rounds but score minor. You don't even need another division... but allow more equipment.

Now going from 6 to 8 is quite a bit different than going from 6 to 8 so I'm not sure it would screw everything up.

[lcs]

40 in for production is not the caliber of choice for production.

Have you ever shot 40 minor? May be more expensive... but it's definitely a good choice!

Sure have.

[lugnut]

40 in for production is not the caliber of choice for production.

Have you ever shot 40 minor? May be more expensive... but it's definitely a good choice!

Sure have.

It's damn good IMO. Bullets tend to cost a tad more... but I have so much 40 brass... I may indeed start using 40 for Production. I know a few guys that do. The only downside I can see is a little cost.

[Chills1994]

Chuck, are there stats readily avail about the number of USPSA members by region, or by state? Ie BAN States vs Free America?

I'm not sure how USPSA HQ recently div'ey'ed up the Single Stack Nat's slots, but maybe you could use that as some sort of indicator as to how many members your section has or how active they are.

but I am not so sure of what it is exactly that you are looking for...or what your point is?

just basing things off the law of averages, yeah, of course areas where there are large metropolitan areas (read that as areas having a higher population density) are naturally going to produce a higher number of USPSA shooters.

are you trying to say that states with more restrictive gun laws have a disproportionately higher number of USPSAer's?

and at first blush, it appears that the areas with the strictest gun control laws also just so happen be more densely populated....or vice versa.

[lcs]

Since it came up we actually looked at the numbers nationwide this weekend. Limited is the most popular division, number two is not Open, it's Production. It's not that far behind Limited.

The only argument I've seen that holds water is that 10 round limits require the purchase of additional magazines. I can buy that and it's a legitimate point. The flip side to that is there are substantial number of Production shooters that own 10 round magazines. Either bought during the ban, or after because they are dirt cheap. I would imagine it'd be about even between the number of existing shooters who needed to buy new magazines and the number of new shooters who could get through a stage with three magazines at 15 rounds.

Forget who but someone also brought up that every competition shooter he knows owns multiple guns. First, not sure if existing competition shooters should be the targeted market. While I certainly appreciate the folks already shooting, just shuffling them around from Division to Division doesn't gain the sport anything. Bringing in new shooters does. I would imagine the population of folks who aren't competition shooters, but might be, and only possess one handgun would be significantly higher. I personally know hundreds. Not a made up number either. There are an awful lot of LEO's who only own a duty gun. There are also a lot of normal folks who purchased handguns in recent years who have never shot with us. Be nice if we could draw in some of the hundred thousand plus people who bought guns on Black Friday.

Bringing in new shooters is the objective! The main entry point to USPSA is Production! Why not make it cheaper and easier to shoot (I happen to think Production is a hard Division to master)

Creating a PROD -10 makes all the objections to changing Production become moot. Your only changing the name. Production would become whatever round count is agreed upon.

How can people object to increasing membership without adversely affecting current members.

[Chills1994]

I thought Limited 10 was a catch all division of sorts. If some guy bought a Browning Higher Power in .40 S&W, it would be perfect for L-10. An STI 2011 chambered in .45 ACP....or Glock 21.

Or for a guy who had a Single Stack 1911 in .45 ACP who had bought the longer 10 round Chip McCormick mags.

[Chills1994]

Why do we need to grow USPSA?

Does something magical happen when we hit 25,000 members?

30,000?

[Supermoto]

How is having Limited 10 a problem in Texas or in Florida? So why would Open 10 be?

The problem is many people worked very hard to get the AWB removed, It was one of the few victories that gun owners got. I see it as nothing more than spitting in the face of the gun lobby by keeping the same arbitrary restriction.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Supermoto

[ima45dv8]

How is having Limited 10 a problem in Texas or in Florida? So why would Open 10 be?

The problem is many people worked very hard to get the AWB removed, It was one of the few victories that gun owners got. I see it as nothing more than spitting in the face of the gun lobby by keeping the same arbitrary restriction.

Mike, I'd be right there with you, and possibly even more passionate, if not for the fact that it (unfortunately) isn't "arbitrary".

I truly wish it were different, and look forward expectantly to the day it is.