Division 'modification' discussion

[badchad]

Let's see.. how many USPSA shooters are in ban states? CA, MA, NY, NJ, etc. I bet a bunch. I guess we could all just switch to SS or Revo.

Not sure about the other states but California doesn't seem to have much problem fielding top shooters in Open and Limited as is.

[ima45dv8]

Out of curiosity, what percent of the guns shot at the 2011 Production Nationals would have been made obsolete by increasing the Production capacity to 15?

I'm getting serious deja vu.

Yeah, of course it's the same debate, and the same question you guys didn't want to answer the last time. If nobody answers it, I'll ask it next time too.

It was answered. You just didn't like the answer.

This sport culminates with the Nationals, but is not driven by it.

If my choice is to screw hundreds of local dues-paying shooters in order to allow more than 10 rounds in Production at the Nationals, I'll vote against it.

Have you discussed this with your Area Director?

[Supermoto]

Conversely if I only have 10 round mags in Production... I'd be at a significant disadvantage with my crippled 10 rounders. So if we get rid od Limited 10 and make Production 15 rounds... what do I compete in?

Let's see.. how many USPSA shooters are in ban states? CA, MA, NY, NJ, etc. I bet a bunch. I guess we could all just switch to SS or Revo.

You would shoot in the same divisions you shoot in now. Nothing says you have to have the maximum allowed equipment for the division. If you want to have higher capacity, get preban mags, change the laws or move. But its silly to make everyone follow the laws that only pertain to a few

[badchad]

Out of curiosity, what percent of the guns shot at the 2011 Production Nationals would have been made obsolete by increasing the Production capacity to 15?

I'm getting serious deja vu.

Yeah, of course it's the same debate, and the same question you guys didn't want to answer the last time. If nobody answers it, I'll ask it next time too.

It was answered. You just didn't like the answer.

Ok, maybe I forgot but I don't think so. 2011 Nationals had what percent of Production guns used that would be made obsolete? Or if you prefer, please post the link to where this was answered.

[MarkCO]

Even though it is a choice, for many this choice is based on what they can afford. I for one would love to shoot Open but I just can convince Momma that I need a $3,500 gun.

My Open Glock is still for sale. Under $1000, and I'll throw in a free dinner for the wife.

[ima45dv8]

Out of curiosity, what percent of the guns shot at the 2011 Production Nationals would have been made obsolete by increasing the Production capacity to 15?

I'm getting serious deja vu.

Yeah, of course it's the same debate, and the same question you guys didn't want to answer the last time. If nobody answers it, I'll ask it next time too.

It was answered. You just didn't like the answer.

Ok, maybe I forgot but I don't think so. 2011 Nationals had what percent of Production guns used that would be made obsolete? Or if you prefer, please post the link to where this was answered.

:roflol:

Still focused on the Nationals...

:roflol:

[Cy Soto]

...I'll vote against it.

In fact, that is all that we ask for... Now that we have a new USPSA President, it would be great if we could have him tackle some of these debates by taking them to a vote amongst the membership.

[MarkCO]

:roflol:

Still focused on the Nationals...

:roflol:

That is Stader's job now (in a few weeks at least).

[Cy Soto]

My Open Glock is still for sale. Under $1000, and I'll throw in a free dinner for the wife.

STOP TEMPTING ME!!!!!!

[MarkCO]

...I'll vote against it.

In fact, that is all that we ask for... Now that we have a new USPSA President, it would be great if we could have him tackle some of these debates by taking them to a vote amongst the membership.

The President gets a vote, and can make motions, but it is better to send such to your AD (Chris Endersby) and convince him it needs a vote of the BOD.

[badchad]

:roflol:

Still focused on the Nationals...

:roflol:

Still won't answer the question, yuk yuk yuk. If it's not a problem for you're side that the percent is actually zero, or nearly zero, why not just admit it? What are you giving up by that admission?

[ima45dv8]

:roflol:

Still focused on the Nationals...

:roflol:

That is Stader's job now (in a few weeks at least).

I guess you meant Phil Strader.

Yes, it's his job now. And while Mike did yeoman's duty fighting the Evil Empire (that's a bone tossed out for Bill Noyes, BTW ), I eagerly await the influence of new blood at the helm.

[lugnut]

Conversely if I only have 10 round mags in Production... I'd be at a significant disadvantage with my crippled 10 rounders. So if we get rid od Limited 10 and make Production 15 rounds... what do I compete in?

Let's see.. how many USPSA shooters are in ban states? CA, MA, NY, NJ, etc. I bet a bunch. I guess we could all just switch to SS or Revo.

You would shoot in the same divisions you shoot in now. Nothing says you have to have the maximum allowed equipment for the division. If you want to have higher capacity, get preban mags, change the laws or move. But its silly to make everyone follow the laws that only pertain to a few

15 rounds is just as arbitrary as 10. Many production guns hold 17 rounds. Of course I could shoot 10 rounds while everyone else shoots with 15... I'd be at a huge disadvantage. It's not just about letting people use the equipment they can get- it's also about setting guidelines so the best shooter wins because they're a better shooter... not because someone had one or two fewer reloads/stage.

I'm saying changing the rule has no significant benefit to Production IMO. Guys with 17 rounds mags can load to 10 as well.

I have plenty of pre bans... some states don't allow pre bans... (no, I'm not moving to NJ with you!) and I'd shoot limited minor if I wanted to load up.

Edited December 6, 2011 by lugnut

[Corey]

:roflol:

Still focused on the Nationals...

:roflol:

Still won't answer the question, yuk yuk yuk. If it's not a problem for you're side that the percent is actually zero, or nearly zero, why not just admit it? What are you giving up by that admission?

Ill answer it for him and you'll like the first part of this post. Of the 200 some shooter at nationals (im not bothering to look up any info here, just winging numbers around) there are probably 0 shooters that would have been effected by the proposed 15 round change. Happy yet?

Now, lets talk about the average shooter for a quick second. Ill even give you 2. I own 2 guns that can be used in Production. One is an XD and the other is a Glock. Both are larger calibers and not condusive to being "Production ideal", but if I wanted to shoot Production, i could b/c....wait for it....Its what i own! Thats that the division is all abot right? letting shooters get out and play without buying a ton of new stuff or a new gun? A buddy of mine that I got into this sport last year is the same way. He owns a 45 caliber XD. its his only handgun and he likes it. Its what he has. 15 rounds wouldnt let him be competitive, nor would it let me.

Your arguement of the guns at Nationals doesnt work. People who spend the time and money to go to Nationals are going to spend the money on a competitive gun with competitive upgrades, not a bone stock XD carry gun. Now I am one of those people in other divisions (SS and Limited) but for the purpose of this division I am a regular joe with limited money and gear who may want to play from time to time for S&G's. The numbers at nationals are meaningless for this discussion. That is what Mark was trying to get through to you last year and again now.

The 15 round is a fix for a non-existant problem. It is mostly given by those who dont want to reload as much. Its part of the game!!! If you dont like reloading, then load up your mags and shoot Limited. If you want to learn how to handle your gun and how to manipulate it well, as well as learn how to break down stages a little differently than the "hose'em as you see'em" then download the mags to 10 rounds and have a good time in Production.

[Supermoto]

The 15 round is a fix for a non-existant problem. It is mostly given by those who dont want to reload as much. Its part of the game!!! If you dont like reloading, then load up your mags and shoot Limited. If you want to learn how to handle your gun and how to manipulate it well, as well as learn how to break down stages a little differently than the "hose'em as you see'em" then download the mags to 10 rounds and have a good time in Production.

It has nothing to do with not wanting to reload, at least for me. The 10 round limit came about because of the AWB, Most of the country has seen how ridiculous this restriction was, expect for a couple of states and uspsa. Production should allow what ever round count came with the gun

Edited December 6, 2011 by Supermoto

[lcs]

:roflol:

Still focused on the Nationals...

:roflol:

Still won't answer the question, yuk yuk yuk. If it's not a problem for you're side that the percent is actually zero, or nearly zero, why not just admit it? What are you giving up by that admission?

Ill answer it for him and you'll like the first part of this post. Of the 200 some shooter at nationals (im not bothering to look up any info here, just winging numbers around) there are probably 0 shooters that would have been effected by the proposed 15 round change. Happy yet?

Now, lets talk about the average shooter for a quick second. Ill even give you 2. I own 2 guns that can be used in Production. One is an XD and the other is a Glock. Both are larger calibers and not condusive to being "Production ideal", but if I wanted to shoot Production, i could b/c....wait for it....Its what i own! Thats that the division is all abot right? letting shooters get out and play without buying a ton of new stuff or a new gun? A buddy of mine that I got into this sport last year is the same way. He owns a 45 caliber XD. its his only handgun and he likes it. Its what he has. 15 rounds wouldnt let him be competitive, nor would it let me.

Your arguement of the guns at Nationals doesnt work. People who spend the time and money to go to Nationals are going to spend the money on a competitive gun with competitive upgrades, not a bone stock XD carry gun. Now I am one of those people in other divisions (SS and Limited) but for the purpose of this division I am a regular joe with limited money and gear who may want to play from time to time for S&G's. The numbers at nationals are meaningless for this discussion. That is what Mark was trying to get through to you last year and again now.

The 15 round is a fix for a non-existant problem. It is mostly given by those who dont want to reload as much. Its part of the game!!! If you dont like reloading, then load up your mags and shoot Limited. If you want to learn how to handle your gun and how to manipulate it well, as well as learn how to break down stages a little differently than the "hose'em as you see'em" then download the mags to 10 rounds and have a good time in Production.

And you believe Production should be all about letting you and an admitted very small minority be competitive with a 45??? If your shooting 45 store bought ammo, I highly doubt you would ever be competitive in Production.

"Loading up your mags and go shoot limited minor" is as lame as the first statement if your talking being competitive. Limited Minor is nothing more than a penalty for failing to make major at the chrono.

[ima45dv8]

The 15 round is a fix for a non-existant problem. It is mostly given by those who dont want to reload as much. Its part of the game!!! If you dont like reloading, then load up your mags and shoot Limited. If you want to learn how to handle your gun and how to manipulate it well, as well as learn how to break down stages a little differently than the "hose'em as you see'em" then download the mags to 10 rounds and have a good time in Production.

It has nothing to do with not wanting to reload, at least for me. The 10 round limit came about because of the AWB, Most of the country has seen how ridiculous this restriction was, expect for a couple of states and uspsa. Production should allow what ever round count came with the gun

The key word here being, "Most".

If that word could be substituted with "All", I'd agree with the proposal.

Until then...

[MarkCO]

And you believe Production should be all about letting you and an admitted very small minority be competitive with a 45??? If your shooting 45 store bought ammo, I highly doubt you would ever be competitive in Production.

I am quite certain I could be competitive in C class production with a .45. But since I am A Limited, the lowest I could go is B class. So now the classificiation system is what has screwed me, not the equipment!

[Jim Norman]

Hello Chad. I've been waiting for you to chime in here!

Your heart-felt stance on "unlimiting" the Production division has not been forgotten (at least, not by me!).

Same as last time, I'm not basing my opinion on the Nationals. I'm concerned with the local shooter, who owns and drives this organization.

Obviously you are not basing your opinion on the Nationals, but that doesn't change my question. What percent of Production guns shot there would be made obsolete? If it's more than ZERO percent I'd be moderately surprised.

My Sig and my XD will both only load to 12 rounds in .40 and .40 IS a competitive round in Production. Change that to 15 rounds and I am limited to my Glock 17, 22. Hence changing to 15 rounds obsoletes both of these guns. And others.

As fr loading up and shooting Limited Minor, with a G22 I can shoot limited Major, I can also Shoot L10 Major.

And again I say that this discussion is NOT about changing an existing division, but rather about the potential for more shooters entering into our ranks by adding two new divisions. Maybe set them up as a category under Open. Revo open and Open-10. Run them that way for a year or two and see if we bring in sufficient numbers to make them stand on their own. If not, they can remain as categories.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Jim Norman

[lcs]

And you believe Production should be all about letting you and an admitted very small minority be competitive with a 45??? If your shooting 45 store bought ammo, I highly doubt you would ever be competitive in Production.

I am quite certain I could be competitive in C class production with a .45. But since I am A Limited, the lowest I could go is B class. So now the classificiation system is what has screwed me, not the equipment!

I don't get your position, By competitive, I meant a lot higher level than C. Does not economics come into play? If I could afford to be competitive with a 45, I think I could afford another gun other than my carry gun. Production is all about the least expensive ?

[Corey]

Being less expensive than divisions like Lim and Open is a major appeal to the masses of one and two gun owners who want to try some gun games. The fact that they can grab their gun off the nightstand and go have a blast at the range with a new hobby/sport. Does it have to be the less expensive? No, but it is and with the list of Production approved guns it will be. You can be competitive in Prod much cheaper than Limited or Open.

[lcs]

Hello Chad. I've been waiting for you to chime in here!

Your heart-felt stance on "unlimiting" the Production division has not been forgotten (at least, not by me!).

Same as last time, I'm not basing my opinion on the Nationals. I'm concerned with the local shooter, who owns and drives this organization.

Obviously you are not basing your opinion on the Nationals, but that doesn't change my question. What percent of Production guns shot there would be made obsolete? If it's more than ZERO percent I'd be moderately surprised.

My Sig and my XD will both only load to 12 rounds in .40 and .40 IS a competitive round in Production. Change that to 15 rounds and I am limited to my Glock 17, 22. Hence changing to 15 rounds obsoletes both of these guns. And others.

As fr loading up and shooting Limited Minor, with a G22 I can shoot limited Major, I can also Shoot L10 Major.

And again I say that this discussion is NOT about changing an existing division, but rather about the potential for more shooters entering into our ranks by adding two new divisions. Maybe set them up as a category under Open. Revo open and Open-10. Run them that way for a year or two and see if we bring in sufficient numbers to make them stand on their own. If not, they can remain as categories.

40 in for production is not the caliber of choice for production.

You really think an OPEN 10 Division is going to attract and make it easier for new members to shoot USPSA.

[lcs]

Being less expensive than divisions like Lim and Open is a major appeal to the masses of one and two gun owners who want to try some gun games. The fact that they can grab their gun off the nightstand and go have a blast at the range with a new hobby/sport. Does it have to be the less expensive? No, but it is and with the list of Production approved guns it will be. You can be competitive in Prod much cheaper than Limited or Open.

How does increasing to 15 rounds or adding Prod-10/Production change that !

[MarkCO]

I don't get your position, By competitive, I meant a lot higher level than C. Does not economics come into play? If I could afford to be competitive with a 45, I think I could afford another gun other than my carry gun. Production is all about the least expensive ?

We "sell" this sport to new shooters by telling them that they don't have to compete against GMs, only those in their Division AND class. My "point" is that you can't ignore that marketing aspect for the new shooter. For "me" to be competitive in C class Production with a .45, we only need to remove the requirement that I be ranked only one class lower than my highest class. We don't need to mess with the divisions that way.

We can't be everything to everyone, which we have tried to do, maybe to our detriment. I have had several shooters so confused about the Divisions, and classes, and the equipment placement that shooting a USPSA match was too overwhelming.

[Maksim]

Hello Chad. I've been waiting for you to chime in here!

Your heart-felt stance on "unlimiting" the Production division has not been forgotten (at least, not by me!).

Same as last time, I'm not basing my opinion on the Nationals. I'm concerned with the local shooter, who owns and drives this organization.

Obviously you are not basing your opinion on the Nationals, but that doesn't change my question. What percent of Production guns shot there would be made obsolete? If it's more than ZERO percent I'd be moderately surprised.

My Sig and my XD will both only load to 12 rounds in .40 and .40 IS a competitive round in Production. Change that to 15 rounds and I am limited to my Glock 17, 22. Hence changing to 15 rounds obsoletes both of these guns. And others.

As fr loading up and shooting Limited Minor, with a G22 I can shoot limited Major, I can also Shoot L10 Major.

And again I say that this discussion is NOT about changing an existing division, but rather about the potential for more shooters entering into our ranks by adding two new divisions. Maybe set them up as a category under Open. Revo open and Open-10. Run them that way for a year or two and see if we bring in sufficient numbers to make them stand on their own. If not, they can remain as categories.

40 in for production is not the caliber of choice for production.

You really think an OPEN 10 Division is going to attract and make it easier for new members to shoot USPSA.

Absolutely.

At least in the ban states.

Take your basic glock 17, m&P, whatever. By having 10 rounds, you eliminate the need for big sticks, $$$$$$ a piece. You can afford to slap on a delta point on the rear sight, put a threaded barrel and comp and voila, you are competitive.

Right now, I shoot Lim 10 and SS, and dabbled in Production. I would love to shoot Open, but with NJ's limits, I am just not competitive against people who are choosing not to follow local laws, or when I go out of state to compete in sectional, area, or national match.

Telling someone to move out of state just to be competitive in USPSA is ludicrous, as is telling someone to go buy a mag to shoot out of state and throw it away because it is not legal at home.