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Division 'modification' discussion


Jim Norman

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The Glock 21 is perfectly legal in Production with the current 10 round limit. The shooter doesn't have to shoot in Limited or Limited-10 with it.

Yeah? no kidding :rolleyes:

My point was shooting Major in Production(where the example G21 fits more-so than in Lim/L-10) is nothing but a disadvantage to the shooter.

I thought DVC was supposed to represent a balance of speed, power, and accuracy. Why is production the only Division that doesn't recognize shooters using the higher power factor?

Unless it really is a "beginners" division.... P0king_Emoticon.gif

As soon as you add Major to Production, every 9mm becomes obsolete. You sure that's what you want?

Obsolete?? :blink:

So no one shoots minor in Single Stack to get the extra two rounds capacity?

I'm still pretty new to the sport and just wondering out loud, but why is okay to have the trade off in one division but not another?

The simple change would allow more production guns chambered in major calibers to compete in the division where they already belong competitively, and be scored appropriately for using the "power" part in the sports principle of "Speed Power and Accuracy"

Edited by Gatekeeper
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No one wins with single stack minor at a major match. Sure people do it, but its not very competitive. Especially at L3 matches. Could Phil, TGO or Dave win with minor? Probably, but they shoot major for a reason.

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The Glock 21 is perfectly legal in Production with the current 10 round limit. The shooter doesn't have to shoot in Limited or Limited-10 with it.

Yeah? no kidding :rolleyes:

My point was shooting Major in Production(where the example G21 fits more-so than in Lim/L-10) is nothing but a disadvantage to the shooter.

I thought DVC was supposed to represent a balance of speed, power, and accuracy. Why is production the only Division that doesn't recognize shooters using the higher power factor?

Unless it really is a "beginners" division.... P0king_Emoticon.gif

As soon as you add Major to Production, every 9mm becomes obsolete. You sure that's what you want?

Obsolete?? :blink:

So no one shoots minor in Single Stack to get the extra two rounds capacity?

I'm still pretty new to the sport and just wondering out loud, but why is okay to have the trade off in one division but not another?

The simple change would allow more production guns chambered in major calibers to compete in the division where they already belong competitively, and be scored appropriately for using the "power" part in the sports principle of "Speed Power and Accuracy"

The fact that you are new is obvious.

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No one wins with single stack minor at a major match. Sure people do it, but its not very competitive. Especially at L3 matches. Could Phil, TGO or Dave win with minor? Probably, but they shoot major for a reason.

Oh, I don't know about that. I heard some fat guy won Area 1 shooting Minor last year in Single Stack.

That said, the numbers of guys shooting Minor in Single Stack is minimal. A few percent as opposed to the much, much higher percentage of minor shooters in Production now.

I view Production as a division for competetive equality. There are literally dozens of guns that could be used, in multiple calibers, at realtively low cost. There is no capacity race. I also view new shooters a bit differently than what most of the posts have been about. I break them down as first time shooters and new shooters. First timers are the ones that come out to the range with whatever they have, shoot their first match in Limited minor with a Ruger P85, or a Kahr K9, or whatever they have. The vast majority of these shooters will not become USPSA members. They shoot, they decide the don't like it, they don't come back. It would be great if they all stuck around but that's probably not going to happen regardless of how we tinker with Divisions.

The new shooters are a category I'm more interested in. They come to their first match they like it and then what. Production gives them an easy entry division. Now they've been to their first match. They've become USPSA members. They have enough knowledge to buy a gun and equipment. Production is a very easy route to take once you start shooting. We have a very poor retention rate when it comes to new members. They sign up, their with us a year, they're no longer members. They might still shoot, but they just choose to not be members because they aren't shooting major matches.

To the poster who was upset with the attitude of, it's they way we've always done it, why change. It goes beyond that. Members have said time and again they prefer rules stability. Changing division rules every 6 months will kill us. In addition, if we're going to change division rules, or any rule for that matter we should weigh the positives against the negatives. If there is a strong positive and no, or minor negatives, sure change. I don't think we have that with going to 15 in Production. If it's a push, yeah, we could change and maybe add a few shooters, but we might also lose a few. I'd rather stick with status quo. There needs to be a clear and convincing reason before we start trying to exclude shooters.

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The Glock 21 is perfectly legal in Production with the current 10 round limit. The shooter doesn't have to shoot in Limited or Limited-10 with it.

Yeah? no kidding :rolleyes:

My point was shooting Major in Production(where the example G21 fits more-so than in Lim/L-10) is nothing but a disadvantage to the shooter.

I thought DVC was supposed to represent a balance of speed, power, and accuracy. Why is production the only Division that doesn't recognize shooters using the higher power factor?

Unless it really is a "beginners" division.... P0king_Emoticon.gif

As soon as you add Major to Production, every 9mm becomes obsolete. You sure that's what you want?

Obsolete?? :blink:

So no one shoots minor in Single Stack to get the extra two rounds capacity?

I'm still pretty new to the sport and just wondering out loud, but why is okay to have the trade off in one division but not another?

The simple change would allow more production guns chambered in major calibers to compete in the division where they already belong competitively, and be scored appropriately for using the "power" part in the sports principle of "Speed Power and Accuracy"

You're recreating the wheel. Use the search function and review threads on minor v major. While there are a handful of outstanding shooters who run minor and do quite well, there are remarkably few winners who do, and the very wide consensus is that given a choice, major wins every time.

FWIW, Minor scoring is a major part of the "flavor" of shooting production. It makes accuracy a higher priority, and requires a different approach than shooting major, where it is often worth shooting faster Cs to save time. That alone makes shooting production a great training tool and test.

BB

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A while back there was a discussion on "leveling the playing field". People were wanting to set limits because it was becoming an arms race and very $$$ to be competitive.

Production, the way it's set-up now does that the best it can to "level the playing field". The major/minor; increase to 15 rd etc. is just another way to an arms race...again.

As for getting and keeping new shooters, we are our own worst enemy. How many times I've heard new people ask the old timers about equipment and reloading only to hear, "...this gun cost me (thousands of dollars) and you need to reload and to get set-up will cost about (thousand dollars)..." "...start with a (plastic gun) then when you get better you can get a custom gun that runs about (thousands of dollars)"

I will never shoot in Open 10 if I have a choice between that and Open :angry:

We all know about the "change" that started in January 2009 :devil:

Edited by HI5-O
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You're recreating the wheel. Use the search function and review threads on minor v major. While there are a handful of outstanding shooters who run minor and do quite well, there are remarkably few winners who do, and the very wide consensus is that given a choice, major wins every time.

FWIW, Minor scoring is a major part of the "flavor" of shooting production. It makes accuracy a higher priority, and requires a different approach than shooting major, where it is often worth shooting faster Cs to save time. That alone makes shooting production a great training tool and test.

BB

I'm quite aware that Major usually beats Minor, and like i said before I'm happy with not changing anything.

I simply felt like perhaps a "production" type gun if shot in production division should be scored according to what PF they actually use.

Was just a suggestion for debate considering the 8/10-Maj/Min capacity works for single stack, I always thought it would open up more guns up to be competetive in Production.shrug.gif

The fact that you are new is obvious.

???

Apparently I'm too new and inexperienced to participate so I'll kindly bow out of the thread.

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No one wins with single stack minor at a major match. Sure people do it, but its not very competitive. Especially at L3 matches. Could Phil, TGO or Dave win with minor? Probably, but they shoot major for a reason.

Oh, I don't know about that. I heard some fat guy won Area 1 shooting Minor last year in Single Stack.

:ph34r:

Dang.. busted.. :goof:

2 GM's duel it out Minor vs Major.. nice.

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The Glock 21 is perfectly legal in Production with the current 10 round limit. The shooter doesn't have to shoot in Limited or Limited-10 with it.

Yeah? no kidding :rolleyes:

My point was shooting Major in Production(where the example G21 fits more-so than in Lim/L-10) is nothing but a disadvantage to the shooter.

I thought DVC was supposed to represent a balance of speed, power, and accuracy. Why is production the only Division that doesn't recognize shooters using the higher power factor?

Unless it really is a "beginners" division.... P0king_Emoticon.gif

I suspect that the cost of factory 9mm was a factor in making the division minor only....

The things that I have always thought make it unique:

  • Minor scoring
  • 10 rounds to a mag
  • No single action guns
  • No optics, comps, or ports
  • Restriction on external modifications -- so the guns still look stock, reflect the appearance of the manufacturer's product line
  • Holster and pouch positioning.

I would really hate to see that core list amended....

Really ?

Yep -- because at some level sponsors matter, and because, unlike Open/Limited/L10 blasters, the 1911s of SS Division and the guns of Production look like what the recreational gun owner already has at home.....

Back in the days of one, and then two divisions, USPSA looked like it required a custom racegun. That perception of the sport is still a fight -- so appearance does matter, in terms of recruiting new shooters....

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You're recreating the wheel. Use the search function and review threads on minor v major. While there are a handful of outstanding shooters who run minor and do quite well, there are remarkably few winners who do, and the very wide consensus is that given a choice, major wins every time.

FWIW, Minor scoring is a major part of the "flavor" of shooting production. It makes accuracy a higher priority, and requires a different approach than shooting major, where it is often worth shooting faster Cs to save time. That alone makes shooting production a great training tool and test.

BB

I'm quite aware that Major usually beats Minor, and like i said before I'm happy with not changing anything.

I simply felt like perhaps a "production" type gun if shot in production division should be scored according to what PF they actually use.

Was just a suggestion for debate considering the 8/10-Maj/Min capacity works for single stack, I always thought it would open up more guns up to be competetive in Production.shrug.gif

The fact that you are new is obvious.

???

Apparently I'm too new and inexperienced to participate so I'll kindly bow out of the thread.

It really wouldn't. You'd wind up in a situation, where virtually all serious production would move to major. Having 10+1 is nice for stage breakdown, on some stages, and it can be nice if facing a star.....

That said, if major was available, I'd switch to a .40 or more likely a .45 in a heartbeat, and just learn to break stages down differently....

That wouldn't be my preference, but I'm not leaving points behind....

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I think my enthusiasm is directly linked to the outside temperature. When does spring get here ?

Exactly three months from today!

God I hope so, my home club has a new shooters clinic scheduled for March 18th. BURRRRRRRRRRR.

I can see a start position now: Standing directly behind fire barrel. Hands in coat pockets, or extended towards fire -- shooter's choice. Handgun holstered and unloaded.

Back on topic. Although the interview was long, I think that some things can be gleaned from the recent Dave Thomas interview: http://www.powerfactorshow.com/2011/12/19/episode-53-interview-with-dave-thomas-uspsa/

It sounds like the division choices made were the right ones, and as discussed above, and Steel Challenge is the appropriate gateway it USPSA.

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You could have Open-10… call it "retro". I'm sure a lot of you already have Open-10 guns, single stack open guns gathering dust somewhere. :D

I notice many of the arguments in this thread come from the view point of making things easier, which I do not understand.

Edited by cas
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After reading all this, I see many valid points, many great ideas. Competition breeds innovation, you cannot regulate that. No matter what division is modified or created, someone will figure out a way to "game" it.

I have been a member of USPSA for more years than I can remember, I look at the equipment today compared to when I started, and I am amazed at the human inventive spirit. When I started shooting, a competition gun was pistol with adjustable sights. There were no dots or compensators, no hi cap mags. A Browning Hi-Power was a game changer with its high capacity of 9mm ammo.

The competitive spirit took over because someone figured out that with certain changes and additions to their pistol, they could overcome the lack of experience and ability and compete with the truly talented shooters.

So, no matter what you call a division and no matter what rules you make the shooter adhere to, someone will figure out how to game it. The ONLY way to keep it fair, is to do like NASCAR, create templates and inspectors to examine each pistol insuring that each competitor is equal in every way. The main drawback to this is the reason I no longer watch NASCAR, it's BORING!

I do agree that you can't have a division for every shooter that shows up, but the divisions that are available now, pretty much capture the majority of shooters.

Oh, and lay off the absurd, how does painting the inside of a magwell impact anything? Really, someone wins their division because their magwell was painted? Give me a break, you don't really believe that?

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... Snip...

Oh, and lay off the absurd, how does painting the inside of a magwell impact anything? Really, someone wins their division because their magwell was painted? Give me a break, you don't really believe that?

DNROI seems to think it gives a shooter a significant advantange so there is a ruling against it. Sometimes change over the years is not always a good thing.

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I think my enthusiasm is directly linked to the outside temperature. When does spring get here ?

Exactly three months from today!

God I hope so, my home club has a new shooters clinic scheduled for March 18th. BURRRRRRRRRRR.

I can see a start position now: Standing directly behind fire barrel. Hands in coat pockets, or extended towards fire -- shooter's choice. Handgun holstered and unloaded.

Back on topic. Although the interview was long, I think that some things can be gleaned from the recent Dave Thomas interview: http://www.powerfactorshow.com/2011/12/19/episode-53-interview-with-dave-thomas-uspsa/

It sounds like the division choices made were the right ones, and as discussed above, and Steel Challenge is the appropriate gateway it USPSA.

It was about 65 today, and we had the air conditioner on. would have been great except for the rain.

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I was going to throw my hat in the ring for an Open 10 Division also. What a great place to bring out the ICORE open revolver or the vintage Single Stack Open Pistol :cheers: then I remembered that we can still play with them in Open. Yes, I may not be as competitive with 8 or 10 rounds compared to 20+, but I am here having fun and shooting something unique compared to the majority of my fellow shooters. Let's just leave it as it stands. This is coming from a SASS match director who has to deal with 40+ categories/divisions next year.

:cheers:

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