Division 'modification' discussion

[technetium-99m]

Where is the pool of people coming from with 10 round open guns? Is there another shooting sport they are popular in? Steel shooting or something?

Production guns loaded to capacity are limited guns in my view. Stick on a few basepads and get 20+ rounds in your G17 and go play if you really want.

[Chuck D]

I (and others) are being asked to change to accomodate NOT the other way around.

But didn't you say you haven't shot a USPSA match since 2004?

Yes that is correct. I left in 2004 mostly due to the constant arguing over the elimination of L10. I decided to renew my membership in 2011. Time will tell if that was a mistake...

what that has to do with asking others to make changes to established and successful divisions and how I'm (and others) who participate or plan on participating in these divisions are holding the other 90% of the country hostage in 10 round capacity land remains a mystery to me.

last time I get suckered back into the conversation...over and out.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Chuck D

[ima45dv8]

It obsoletes several guns, some shooters equipment, and will probably piss some folks off.

Reason enough not to go there.

[carlosa]

I'm NOT for an Open 10 division.

Unlike CA, we cannot use regular capacity mags that we owned before (insert date). All shooters here have to use 10 rd mags. We have to shoot 10 rd divisions (exc. revo) here no matter what, even if I wanted to exercise my L.E. exemption.

When I travel to out-of-state matches, I typically will shoot in Open with regular capacity mags or if I should pick up my limited gun I will use regular capacity mags. Reason is I can shoot -10 rd whatever anytime in my home state but, won't shoot -10 rd divisions when I travel to states that allow regular capacity mags.

If an Open 10 division is created, it will shut down my argument to legislators that we in 10 rd states are hampered when we compete with the U.S. shooter

I say leave it alone, no more new divisions.

thanks

Amen brother!!

[ima45dv8]

Yes that is correct. I left in 2004 mostly due to the constant arguing over the elimination of L10. I decided to renew my membership in 2011. Time will tell if that was a mistake...

what that has to do with asking others to make changes to established and successful divisions and how I'm (and others) who participate or plan on participating in these divisions are holding the other 90% of the country hostage in 10 round capacity land remains a mystery to me.

last time I get suckered back into the conversation...over and out.

I don't think we'd be throwing around terms like, "....90% of the country hostage" if we lived in one of those 10% states.

[badchad]

It obsoletes several guns, some shooters equipment, and will probably piss some folks off.

Reason enough not to go there.

Out of curiosity, what percent of the guns shot at the 2011 Production Nationals would have been made obsolete by increasing the Production capacity to 15?

[Cy Soto]

It obsoletes several guns, some shooters equipment, and will probably piss some folks off. That's the downside.

There is no doubt that some shooters will be disappointed but I am willing to bet that most of those don't even shoot Production on any sort of regular basis. Then again, any change that we make is always going to make someone unhappy. As if it's been previously mentioned, our rules have been stagnant for quite some time and it's certainly time to evolve it so that we can progress it.

Allowing 15-round magazines is Production will attract a lot more shooters into that Division. Myself (as well as many others) are convinced that this change would be beneficial not just for this Division but to the sport in general.

The most common reason that I hear advocating against this change is that this would make some pistols less adequate for this Division but the truth is that only a miniscule fraction of shooters are using pistols incapable of having 15-round magazines. Personally, I don't know of a single competitive shooter who doesn't have AT LEAST 3 or more firearms and, in all of the cases, they have some with 15+ rounds mags. And 8-shot revolvers in Production... Come on, how often do we ever see this?

This change is one that we most certainly consider making.

Offer Production and Production-10 at the level 2 matches next year. Then you'll have your consensus.

Until then you just have a bunch of excuses and internet speculation.

Given the opportunity to shoot Production with 10-round magazines or 15-round magazines, I assure you that only a miniscule percentage of shooters will choose to load their mags to only 10 rounds.

[Chuck Anderson]

It obsoletes several guns, some shooters equipment, and will probably piss some folks off.

Reason enough not to go there.

I'm actually OK with pissing some off if there was a real advantage to doing it. I just don't see it.

In response to the argument that it is only about the crime bill magazine limit. It might have started that way but it is certainly different now. I have always had easy access to hicap mags. If I didnt want to shoot 10 I wouldn't. I like the 10 round limit because it forces me to better analyze stages, be more deliberate and accurate with my shots and I like doing something other than just pulling the trigger.

So I'll ask the question again, because I still haven't actually read an answer. What problem does changing the Production capacity fix. If we still have an arbitrary cap at 15 how is that appreciably different from what we have now? At least sticking to 10 makes some sense. Ban states and existing equipment. Just not hearing any reason to go to 15 other than why not.

[lcs]

It obsoletes several guns, some shooters equipment, and will probably piss some folks off.

Reason enough not to go there.

That is an old argument. If you had Production and Prod -10, how would that obsolete anything. It would make getting into production cheaper. Most every 9mm gun sold today comes with two or three hicap mags. You would not need four to 6 mag pouches either.

[ima45dv8]

It obsoletes several guns, some shooters equipment, and will probably piss some folks off.

Reason enough not to go there.

Out of curiosity, what percent of the guns shot at the 2011 Production Nationals would have been made obsolete by increasing the Production capacity to 15?

Hello Chad. I've been waiting for you to chime in here!

Your heart-felt stance on "unlimiting" the Production division has not been forgotten (at least, not by me!).

Same as last time, I'm not basing my opinion on the Nationals. I'm concerned with the local shooter, who owns and drives this organization.

[ima45dv8]

I'm actually OK with pissing some off if there was a real advantage to doing it. I just don't see it.

I have no doubt about that.

And, No, I haven't seen a problem solved by upping the magazine capacity in Production.

[Cy Soto]

So I'll ask the question again, because I still haven't actually read an answer. What problem does changing the Production capacity fix. If we still have an arbitrary cap at 15 how is that appreciably different from what we have now? At least sticking to 10 makes some sense. Ban states and existing equipment. Just not hearing any reason to go to 15 other than why not.

In all honesty, any reason that I can give you as to why we need to make this change, can be easily countered with "well, then why don't these shooter shoot Limited instead?" But I am going to give it a whack anyway...

Allowing 15-round magazines in Production will allow new shooters to shoot in Production without the need to purchase any more magazines than what already comes with their gun (pistols are more often sold with 3 magazines these days), we can make this Division a true test of shooting skill and not one of "who can reload the quickest", it would attract shooters from other Divisions who's equipment is not as competitive in said Division; for example, a bunch of folks who are shooting Limited Minor with 5" M&P or Glock 34 knowing that it is impossible for them to place well against those shooting STI/SVI platforms, it would bring this Division closer to what the rest of the World shoots/call Production, and I can think of a few others but I am going to leave it at this for now.

[ima45dv8]

So I'll ask the question again, because I still haven't actually read an answer. What problem does changing the Production capacity fix. If we still have an arbitrary cap at 15 how is that appreciably different from what we have now? At least sticking to 10 makes some sense. Ban states and existing equipment. Just not hearing any reason to go to 15 other than why not.

In all honesty, any reason that I can give you as to why we need to make this change, can be easily countered with "well, then why don't these shooter shoot Limited instead?" But I am going to give it a whack anyway...

Allowing 15-round magazines in Production will allow new shooters to shoot in Production without the need to purchase any more magazines than what already comes with their gun (pistols are more often sold with 3 magazines these days), we can make this Division a true test of shooting skill and not one of "who can reload the quickest", it would attract shooters from other Divisions who's equipment is not as competitive in said Division; for example, a bunch of folks who are shooting Limited Minor with 5" M&P or Glock 34 knowing that it is impossible for them to place well against those shooting STI/SVI platforms, it would bring this Division closer to what the rest of the World shoots/call Production, and I can think of a few others but I am going to leave it at this for now.

You literally made me laugh out loud! Not an easy thing,

"Who can reload the quickest" is NOT a valid skill to be tested? Really?

If eliminating reloads to 'level the playing field' is the intent of raising the magazine capacity in Production, I can't get my head around it.

...can be easily countered with "well, then why don't these shooter shoot Limited instead?"

That should read, "Limited Minor".

[lcs]

It obsoletes several guns, some shooters equipment, and will probably piss some folks off.

Reason enough not to go there.

Out of curiosity, what percent of the guns shot at the 2011 Production Nationals would have been made obsolete by increasing the Production capacity to 15?

Hello Chad. I've been waiting for you to chime in here!

Your heart-felt stance on "unlimiting" the Production division has not been forgotten (at least, not by me!).

Same as last time, I'm not basing my opinion on the Nationals. I'm concerned with the local shooter, who owns and drives this organization.

I still think your arguments are based on CHANGING Production, not the idea of PRODUCTION and PROD-10.

[badchad]

Hello Chad. I've been waiting for you to chime in here!

Your heart-felt stance on "unlimiting" the Production division has not been forgotten (at least, not by me!).

Same as last time, I'm not basing my opinion on the Nationals. I'm concerned with the local shooter, who owns and drives this organization.

Obviously you are not basing your opinion on the Nationals, but that doesn't change my question. What percent of Production guns shot there would be made obsolete? If it's more than ZERO percent I'd be moderately surprised.

[Cy Soto]

"Who can reload the quickest" is NOT a valid skill to be tested? Really?

If eliminating reloads to 'level the playing field' is the intent of raising the magazine capacity in Production, I can't get my head around it.

OK, I concede, this is a very valuable skill but I must also add that this is already tested in our Classifiers. And yes, these shooters can compete in Limited Minor but let's be fair... I have never seen anyone who has been shooting Limited Minor place well in any competition so we go right back to the old argument of making this sport into an equipment race.

[bbbean]

Out of curiosity, what percent of the guns shot at the 2011 Production Nationals would have been made obsolete by increasing the Production capacity to 15?

I'm getting serious deja vu.

[ima45dv8]

"Who can reload the quickest" is NOT a valid skill to be tested? Really?

If eliminating reloads to 'level the playing field' is the intent of raising the magazine capacity in Production, I can't get my head around it.

OK, I concede, this is a very valuable skill but I must also add that this is already tested in our Classifiers. And yes, these shooters can compete in Limited Minor but let's be fair... I have never seen anyone who has been shooting Limited Minor place well in any competition so we go right back to the old argument of making this sport into an equipment race.

It's not an equipment race. It's an equipment choice.

And sincerely, when did we get to the point of only testing skills in classifiers? Because something is tested there doesn't remove the opportunity or necessity to test it in all courses of fire.

[bbbean]

Personally, I don't know of a single competitive shooter who doesn't have AT LEAST 3 or more firearms and, in all of the cases, they have some with 15+ rounds mags. And 8-shot revolvers in Production... Come on, how often do we ever see this?

We see a lot of guys at our club who own one pistol. They don't go to Nats, but then (19,700/20000=98.5%) most USPSA members don't, not to mention non-members.

[Corey]

Out of curiosity, what percent of the guns shot at the 2011 Production Nationals would have been made obsolete by increasing the Production capacity to 15?

I'm getting serious deja vu.

You'll have that... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=116250&hl=production 15&st=0

[ima45dv8]

Out of curiosity, what percent of the guns shot at the 2011 Production Nationals would have been made obsolete by increasing the Production capacity to 15?

I'm getting serious deja vu.

Me, too.

Again.

I think.

Or maybe rethought...

[lugnut]

"Who can reload the quickest" is NOT a valid skill to be tested? Really?

If eliminating reloads to 'level the playing field' is the intent of raising the magazine capacity in Production, I can't get my head around it.

OK, I concede, this is a very valuable skill but I must also add that this is already tested in our Classifiers. And yes, these shooters can compete in Limited Minor but let's be fair... I have never seen anyone who has been shooting Limited Minor place well in any competition so we go right back to the old argument of making this sport into an equipment race.

Conversely if I only have 10 round mags in Production... I'd be at a significant disadvantage with my crippled 10 rounders. So if we get rid od Limited 10 and make Production 15 rounds... what do I compete in?

Let's see.. how many USPSA shooters are in ban states? CA, MA, NY, NJ, etc. I bet a bunch. I guess we could all just switch to SS or Revo.

[badchad]

Out of curiosity, what percent of the guns shot at the 2011 Production Nationals would have been made obsolete by increasing the Production capacity to 15?

I'm getting serious deja vu.

Yeah, of course it's the same debate, and the same question you guys didn't want to answer the last time. If nobody answers it, I'll ask it next time too.

[Ming the Merciless]

Open 10 - Several people have asked where the Open 10 shooters would come from? I still have an old single stack open gun from pre-historic days that would be fun to shoot, but currently shooting it against 30 round guns isn't exactly encouraging me to bring it back out. I'm sure there are still lots of single stack open guns gathering dust that would like to come out and play.

Limited 10 - Leave it alone, it works great as is, again I have a couple of nice single stack 1911's, but I DO NOT like to shoot in Single Stack Division because of the holster & magazine location limitations. I have lots of 10 round mags for them, so I do like to shoot them in Limited 10.

Production - Leave it alone, it works great as is, adding 5 more rounds is a solution to a non-existent problem. The Production Nationals are consistantly full, Area and Section matches have a great turnout. If your mags hold 18 rounds, you can still use them, just load them to 10 rounds and no need to buy new mags.

Open Revolver - Again it's been asked where would these new shooters come from? I have a nice ICORE Open Revolver that I would bring out and shoot. I know at least 4 other shooters (who don't normally shoot USPSA) that would probably be happy to bring them to a USPSA match.

[Cy Soto]

It's not an equipment race. It's an equipment choice.

Even though it is a choice, for many this choice is based on what they can afford. I for one would love to shoot Open but I just can convince Momma that I need a $3,500 gun.

We see a lot of guys at our club who own one pistol. They don't go to Nats, but then (19,700/20000=98.5%) most USPSA members don't, not to mention non-members.

I can think of one person in my neck of the woods who only has one gun but he only makes it to a handful of matches a year (maybe 3) and is not a USPSA member. He just shoots to knock the rust off of his trigger finger. He is not the person who I am referring to here; I am talking about new shooters who are interested in becoming a crucial part of this sport and are fully immersed in it.