Troy McManus DNROI Nationals Incident

[RIIID]

The quickest way to effect changes at USPSA is to cut off the money being sent in. If a vast majority of affiliated clubs(+75%) stop sending the money, all uspsa can do is disaffiliate the clubs. Eventually they will realize that they are going to run out of money to operate. This will hurt everyone but, sometimes a little pain is needed.  It just might take burning down the whole organization and rebuild from scratch without making the same mistakes over again. Is this what I want no but, it might be what it takes if uspsa doesn't step up and make the corrections/changes.

Rich

[echotango]

14 hours ago, IVC said:

I voted in the recent elections, you didn't. 

I actually did vote.  Even for the runoff and Production 15.  

[echotango]

12 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

Not only are members not renewing, but clubs are starting to do away with classifier stages for L1 matches.  If that continues, maybe this will resolve itself in time.  

As a MD for 2.5+ years,  I rarely had a classifier. 

[THS]

This is a twisted web when considering the lawsuit as well.

 

If I understand the premise there, USPSA Bylaws were changed by the board at a time when there was no corporation.  Those changes would be null and void, and whatever the bylaws were, at the time of dissolution, would be the last relevant set.   

 

That begs the question "Did USPSA re- incorporate or get reinstated after paying the past due amounts?"   Does the board have any authority to remove the accused if it is not a viable body?

 

Seems to me we could be starting over now, and I propose the following:

1.  Add recall as an option to any BOD or Executive staff position.

2. Empower the President to set the adgenda for the board (if not already.)

3. Create elections for critical positions (DNROI is a perfect example.)

4.  Define a list of "immediate expulsion" events.   (RO's cheating, others)

5.  By Law changes approved by the membership.

 

As to the allegation in the email.  If he did in fact berate a competitor during an event that amounts to interference in the operation of the event, and he should be suspended or expelled.  

 

10.6.2    Other persons may be expelled from the range for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unacceptable.  Examples of unacceptable conduct include, but are not limited to, failing to comply with the reasonable
directions of a Match Official, interference with the operation of a course of fire and/or a competitor’s attempt thereof, and any other behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute.

 

It would be bad enough to act like that after the event, but seeking out a person in the conduct of the competition to cause a confrontation would get any other competitor expelled- right?

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

Just a thought I had. 

 

Considering the situation, the RO being berated for saying things DNRIO didn't like on social media. And we all know there are members who were removed for saying things the BOD didn't like. Doesn't really matter if you agree with them or not doesn't really matter here. 

 

As I'm typing up a email to my AD to ask his thoughts on the situation. I considered should I send it to all of the BOD. If you use the feature to send to everyone, DNROI will also get the email. It's likely that even if he doesn't directly get the email he will know about it as clearly they watch for this stuff. 

 

Then I wonder will I need to worry about retaliation myself just for speaking up or asking questions.

 

The fact that's a valid concern in itself is telling of the situation the org is in. 

[zzt]

I don't have a dog in this fight.    I will say I stopped shooting LII and LIII matches years ago.  Some CROs should not be.  Now I only shoot USPSA LI matches at three clubs.  Management and staff are all welcoming.  There is a reason registration fills within 60 seconds at these clubs.  There is a reason it doesn't at other local clubs.

 

Rude, abusive, or unsportsmanlike behavior is not limited to the top echelons.

[IVC]

11 hours ago, RJH said:

So if the shooting will go on mostly unaffected, why give USPSA three bucks a shooter when you could do something like pscl for free?

That's a valid question. Clubs are free to do it, much like they are free to use any local format for free. 

 

My take is that you give a few buck to the USPSA to keep track of your classifiers and to use the existing rule book, so you have consistency no matter what club it is. At the higher level, you give it a few bucks to have L2-Nationals competition. For international competition, it's IPSC anyways. 

 

The PSCL you mention is exactly what an arbitrary local match looks like. The rules are "borrowed" from any number of organizations and can be modified to match the local ethos. No affiliation, no classifiers, no membership. The biggest benefit of running unaffiliated is, I guess, that nobody can quit in protest if Max doesn't file his paperwork with the state on time. It's just "don't let the door hit you on the way out" goodbye, and you continue using the same rules for free while Max deals with catching up on administrative tasks. 

[IVC]

1 hour ago, echotango said:

I actually did vote.  Even for the runoff and Production 15.  

Why? You're quitting, you're done. If your ex wife told you how to live, would you listen just because the divorce isn't finalized? 

[BMSMB]

20 minutes ago, IVC said:

Why? You're quitting, you're done. If your ex wife told you how to live, would you listen just because the divorce isn't finalized? 

Where did they say they were quiting? They let their membership lapse. Can still shoot local matches while sending a message to the org that this nonsense needs to stop.

[Maximis228]

I stopped signing up with my USPSA number after Area 5 in 2022. I've shot well over 25 local matches since then using "Pending" in the USPSA number field on Practiscore. My membership doesnt expire until the end of 2027. 

 

Clubs don't pay classifier fees for me when I shoot their matches when signing up without my USPSA number, just the activity fee. Many people seem to think this isn't possible, but I've seen it firsthand when MDs go to upload and pay classifier fees. 

 

Ive gave up a GM card in LO doing this... lol 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Maximis228

[driver8M3]

4 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

I stopped signing up with my USPSA number after Area 5 in 2022. I've shot well over 25 local matches since then using "Pending" in the USPSA number field on Practiscore. My membership doesnt expire until the end of 2025. 

 

Clubs don't pay classifier fees for me when I shoot their matches when signing up without my USPSA number, just the activity fee. Many people seem to think this isn't possible, but I've seen it firsthand when MDs go to upload and pay classifier fees. 

 

Ive gave up a GM card in LO doing this... lol 

 

You sure about that? I pay activity and classifier fees for every participant, whether they are members or not.

[IVC]

11 minutes ago, BMSMB said:

Where did they say they were quiting? They let their membership lapse. Can still shoot local matches while sending a message to the org that this nonsense needs to stop.

I was responding to the one guy, but you're right, there were several of them. All quitting. "Lapsing membership" is a euphemism for quitting the organization. It means no longer being a member...

[Maximis228]

3 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

 

You sure about that? I pay activity and classifier fees for every participant, whether they are members or not.

Yes... They pay the activity fee... but not the classifier fee itself. So your average local match with 1 classifier is $1.50 less for people who sign up as pending or no USPSA number. 

 

I also used to run a club and im very aware of the uploading system and paying for fees. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Maximis228

[driver8M3]

Just now, Maximis228 said:

Yes... They pay the activity fee... but not the classifier fee itself. So your average local match with 1 classifier is $1.50 less for people who sign up as pending or no USPSA number. 

 

I pay $3 per participant when I run one classifier and $1.50 per participant when I have no classifier.  A screenshot of my August payment is attached...$306 for 102 participants, including five who were not USPSA members.

 

https://practiscore.com/results/new/215678

[echotango]

44 minutes ago, IVC said:

Why? You're quitting, you're done. If your ex wife told you how to live, would you listen just because the divorce isn't finalized? 

Never said I was quitting or done.  Just no longer a member. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by echotango

[Maximis228]

2 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

 

I pay $3 per participant when I run one classifier and $1.50 per participant when I have no classifier.  A screenshot of my August payment is attached...$306 for 102 participants, including five who were not USPSA members.

 

https://practiscore.com/results/new/215678

Apparently, my local MDs have found a way around it... 

 

Sorry to drift the thread. That wasn't my intention.

 

Troy has a history of misguided judgement both in interactions with the membership and his constant undemanding of the USPSA rule set with his clarifications and DNROI Blog posts that muddy the water for our ruleset. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Maximis228

[swordfish]

17 hours ago, IVC said:

The things will get better when we hold our representatives accountable. When we put the time and effort to change the organization. Quitting doesn't change anything. It's just quitting. 

 

I can talk to Leighton, who is my AD, and voice my concerns. I can also vote for him or someone running against him if he ignores me. And I can talk to my fellow USPSA members and we can all vote to make a change. I voted in the recent elections, you didn't. Our local clubs can decide to align with IDPA instead if this is too much. There are options. But if the clubs associate with the IDPA, they are done with the USPSA and everyone is happy. Or at least should be. 

lol. lmao

[twodownzero]

50 minutes ago, IVC said:

Why? You're quitting, you're done. If your ex wife told you how to live, would you listen just because the divorce isn't finalized? 

 

If the divorce isn't finalized, she isn't your "ex" wife.

[davidb72]

16 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

Yes... They pay the activity fee... but not the classifier fee itself. So your average local match with 1 classifier is $1.50 less for people who sign up as pending or no USPSA number. 

 

I also used to run a club and im very aware of the uploading system and paying for fees. 

You are wrong about this.

Match director has to pay the full fee for every shooter.

Simple as.

[124gr9mm]

27 minutes ago, IVC said:

I was responding to the one guy, but you're right, there were several of them. All quitting. "Lapsing membership" is a euphemism for quitting the organization. It means no longer being a member...

 

I think the point is that the 'lapsed' members are still participating in the activity.  They likely feel that 'voting' and waiting for change to happen is a fool's errand, so they take a more drastic approach and impact the revenue stream.

 

Perhaps loosely analogous to the people I know who will drink a Bud Light if you offer them one at a party, but they'll no longer purchase them.

 

If situations change (for both organizations) the revenue stream could pick up again.

[RJH]

1 hour ago, IVC said:

That's a valid question. Clubs are free to do it, much like they are free to use any local format for free. 

 

My take is that you give a few buck to the USPSA to keep track of your classifiers and to use the existing rule book, so you have consistency no matter what club it is. At the higher level, you give it a few bucks to have L2-Nationals competition. For international competition, it's IPSC anyways. 

 

The PSCL you mention is exactly what an arbitrary local match looks like. The rules are "borrowed" from any number of organizations and can be modified to match the local ethos. No affiliation, no classifiers, no membership. The biggest benefit of running unaffiliated is, I guess, that nobody can quit in protest if Max doesn't file his paperwork with the state on time. It's just "don't let the door hit you on the way out" goodbye, and you continue using the same rules for free while Max deals with catching up on administrative tasks. 

 

So, basically you're saying USPSA is only useful if you're worried about classification.

 

I don't know that the pscl rule set is any more arbitrary rules than the USPSA rule set. I think the idea with pscl was to have consistent rules anywhere that people were running that style of match. That's obviously the greatest asset USPSA has. But that's the same asset that you can get for free from PSCL or you can pay to get from IDPA. In other words USPSA does not have a monopoly on it

 

As far as level two matches go, people can host a large PSL event and competitors can shoot it with no fees going to an organization that gives basically nothing back

 

I have a feeling as soon as pscl develops some sort of small classification system, USPSA will wither rapidly.

[Blackstone45]

And if you want to shoot internationally (ie. IPSC), you need to be a member of USPSA.

[RJH]

Just now, Blackstone45 said:

And if you want to shoot internationally (ie. IPSC), you need to be a member of USPSA.

 

 

Fair enough on that one. But I'm going to say that for 99.9% of USPSA members that is not anything that they're thinking about.

[pjb45]

This thread has drifted from its original intent.

 

Lets stick with the narrative.

 

Troy's action reflect upon USPSA organization, its members and guess what its vendors.  What vendor wants to contribution to a public relations disaster.

 

 

[warpspeed]

Just when you think it can't get any worse -

 

We've had a President removed for similar behavior. Wonder how they will justify keeping Troy. 

 

I'll send a note to my AD. If you think this was wrong you should too,