BritinUSA Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 Sadly, aside from the ability to vote for an AD, the members have zero direct control over the organization. If an AD refuses to listen to the members there's nothing that can be done until the next election, and in many cases an AD will run un-opposed. I suspect that less than 10% of members know or care what is happening within USPSA, the number of votes in elections show that the interest is very low. There were no articles in front Sight concerning the Cameo debacle and I doubt that the reent lawsuit will be mentioned either (the last one certainly wasn't). If members do decide to speak out they may find themselves suspended and later banned. There is little incentive for concerned members to call out the issues. The problems within USPSA have been going on for a very long time. Short of a systemic / catastrophic change within the organization, it won't be fixed any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 Replies in this thread that reasonably discuss issues with the organization are valuable. Those taking it as an opportunity to grind their ax on Troy's backside are not. If you have something relevant and factual to add, please do. Or we can just lock this topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitefish Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 3 hours ago, echotango said: I let my membership expire Sept 1st for reasons like this and others. As did I - actually the same day after 26 - 27 years of membership. I've simply had enough of the ongoing drama in the organization. And now more $$ for the privilege. Like I said - enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varminter22 Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, sc68cal said: Non-members still have a stake in this because their local club activity fees and classifier fees get paid to USPSA HQ. You need to be more respectful 3 hours ago, RJH said: So he should give him $65 for nothing to change If I go to McDonald's or Apple and complain about an employee, something might actually happen. We've seen what happens with USPSA though 1 hour ago, sc68cal said: Because you can still shoot a USPSA match without being a member of USPSA. You can still have an opinion about how USPSA is managed, without being a member. You are gatekeeping 44 minutes ago, Whitefish said: As did I - actually the same day after 26 - 27 years of membership. I've simply had enough of the ongoing drama in the organization. And now more $$ for the privilege. Like I said - enough. Good points, all. And the USPSA Board must be made aware. Oh, and I agree that Troy should be ousted or at least severely disciplined. To ignore it just means a steeper decline than USPSA is already experiencing. Edited September 13, 2023 by varminter22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 1 hour ago, sc68cal said: Because you can still shoot a USPSA match without being a member of USPSA. You can still have an opinion about how USPSA is managed, without being a member. You are gatekeeping Of course you can. But if you're not a member, the opinion doesn't matter. Not to mention the hypocrisy of claiming not to give money to an organization only to pay the fee to participate in their events. I mean, if I'm boycotting McDonald's, I should go to Burger King, not visit their drive-through on the sly... For those who didn't renew, what are they going to do about it? They are already out. Are they going to quit again if nothing changes? Or stomp their feet? The only way to make a change is to work on the change. Leaving is not working on the change. If we need votes to make a change, are we going to ask members to vote, or are we going to ask former members to give us their opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
858 Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 7 minutes ago, varminter22 said: And the USPSA Board must be made aware. The BOD that were sued for sexual harassment and later caught instructing each other how to break Colorado laws? I have low expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 Not only are members not renewing, but clubs are starting to do away with classifier stages for L1 matches. If that continues, maybe this will resolve itself in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, IVC said: If we need votes to make a change, are we going to ask members to vote, or are we going to ask former members to give us their opinion? And what do members get to vote for? AD? Figurehead president with no power? Big whoop. Like that's going change anything. Hasn't in the past, and won't in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 I know there are lots of strong opinions here, but remember Attitude Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful. No bickering. Regardless of the subject matter. Antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones are not acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlKeese Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 "But if you're not a member, the opinion doesn't matter." I think it's become pretty obvious that member opinions don't matter either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truespode Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 42 minutes ago, IVC said: But if you're not a member, the opinion doesn't matter. That is the attitude that brings in new blood for sure Personally, I feel non members opinion are just as important. Especially around a topic that could be why they don't join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conner Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 The public temper tantrums Troy has thrown at major matches has made me wonder, what are his actual qualifications to be DNROI? They must have some good reason for keeping him around this long despite his character, right? From what I can tell his résumé basically consists of being a B-class shooter who relatively frequently gets bumped to Open. I’m definitely not hating on people of any classification, or who have been bumped… I’m just failing to see why Troy is even a good fit for the position, even aside from his emotional issues? Particularly being bumped to Open, he’s supposed to be the authority on the rules, but he can’t follow them himself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 Troy was the next in line after Amidon (his rulings also sometimes were a bit wacky). He's a certified IROA RM and been doing the RO gig a very long time. I can't say why he gets bumped, but I'm guessing the competition part of it is more for funsies these days so he's not super rigorous about the gear. At least he still shoots somewhat, unlike a lot of high-level ROs across the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 10 minutes ago, shred said: Troy was the next in line after Amidon (his rulings also sometimes were a bit wacky). He's a certified IROA RM and been doing the RO gig a very long time. Sorry ... Troy's IROA certification is that of RO which he was awarded in 2018. Amidon was an IROA RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 Good to know. Somebody that should know better not long ago said he was the other US IROA RM besides you, but IPSC.org says you are correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 To my recollection, there have only ever been 3 US based IROA RMs: Arnie C., John A., and me. If there were others, it was more than 20 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose97 Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 2 hours ago, IVC said: we need votes to make a change, are we going to ask members to vote, or are we going to ask former members to give us their opinion? Remind me again when the next vote for DNROI is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 1 hour ago, shred said: Troy was the next in line after Amidon (his rulings also sometimes were a bit wacky). He's a certified IROA RM and been doing the RO gig a very long time. I can't say why he gets bumped, but I'm guessing the competition part of it is more for funsies these days so he's not super rigorous about the gear. At least he still shoots somewhat, unlike a lot of high-level ROs across the world. I can say why he got bumped to open. Basically he doesn't understand the rule book and he can't read a scale. If the bar is that low for dnroi, maybe we should raise the bar a little bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 10 minutes ago, moose97 said: Remind me again when the next vote for DNROI is... We vote for the board and the board can make the change. But the big picture is this. Local clubs run everything, from stage design to bringing in new shooters. The USPSA fees are nominal and what happens at the HQ has little to no bearing on where the actual shooting happens, which is at the local level. I would like to clean it all up, that's would be my OCD side, but in the end, whatever happens with the organization, most of the shooting will be minimally affected. So, whether we are upset or not, the show will go on, mostly unaffected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, moose97 said: Remind me again when the next vote for DNROI is... Yeah, I haven't seen that vote in a while lol. Dnroi has the power to remove any president or board member from office by revoking their ro status, yet doesn't get voted into office. It's kind of a strange paradox. Especially considering the amount of "ethics" issues he's had while chastising others for those same or less issues I mean, even if we go down to the basic, we can't call Ds "dicks" while Troy has a don't be a "dick' rule, all the while cussing out ROs. Seems kind of crazy, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose97 Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, IVC said: We vote for the board and the board can make the change. So, your solution is to hope that all the Area elections over the next what, 7 years, "solve" all the issues on the board & they'll eventually have enough votes to "make a change"? How does that make any difference right now ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 1 minute ago, IVC said: We vote for the board and the board can make the change. But the big picture is this. Local clubs run everything, from stage design to bringing in new shooters. The USPSA fees are nominal and what happens at the HQ has little to no bearing on where the actual shooting happens, which is at the local level. I would like to clean it all up, that's would be my OCD side, but in the end, whatever happens with the organization, most of the shooting will be minimally affected. So, whether we are upset or not, the show will go on, mostly unaffected. So if the shooting will go on mostly unaffected, why give USPSA three bucks a shooter when you could do something like pscl for free? Also you are completely ignoring the fact that dnroi can eliminate any board member by simply revoking their ro status You are correct that local clubs actually run everything, so tell me what are local clubs getting other than a classification system? As far as a standardized set of rules, PSCL has that. They also have majors. So, what are clubs getting for the one to $2,000+ they are spending for activity and classifier fees per year to USPSA? Is it a personalized cussing from dnroi USPSA is paving the way for something like PSCL. And this is coming from a guy who has never shot a pscl match. I honestly think the only thing holding pscl back is a classifier, and a few USPSA diehards that remember the old days. And I'm not sure what the old days is, because I've been shooting this for 18 years. And if my locals went to PSCL I would be more than happy to switch to that as I see no value in USPSA anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echotango Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, IVC said: Of course you can. But if you're not a member, the opinion doesn't matter. Not to mention the hypocrisy of claiming not to give money to an organization only to pay the fee to participate in their events. I mean, if I'm boycotting McDonald's, I should go to Burger King, not visit their drive-through on the sly... For those who didn't renew, what are they going to do about it? They are already out. Are they going to quit again if nothing changes? Or stomp their feet? The only way to make a change is to work on the change. Leaving is not working on the change. If we need votes to make a change, are we going to ask members to vote, or are we going to ask former members to give us their opinion? I no longer shoot L2/3 as if this year so I feel there is no reason to pay for a membership. I don't care if I have an X next my name instead of a GM/M. I have always voted while a member. Also voted for a prez that was removed because Troy and other AD's did not like him. I will continue to shot L1's and yes my $1.50($3 w/ a classifier) will go to USPSA but that is it. Edited September 13, 2023 by echotango Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 Aside from the classification system (which has its own issues) and the ever-changing rulebook, USPSA provides nothing of value for the revenue that it receives. That revenue represents literally thousands of man-hours of work by match organizers, stage designers, stage builders, RO's and the shooters that they provide for. With NINE voting members on the BOD, it requires FIVE to make any change, and SEVEN to make bylaw changes. Getting that many good people on the BOD is going to be an uphill struggle. Especially when they can suspend anyone that is critical of the organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echotango Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, EarlKeese said: "But if you're not a member, the opinion doesn't matter." I think it's become pretty obvious that member opinions don't matter either. 100% Edited September 13, 2023 by echotango Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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