Limited Optics

[Boomstick303]

Combining a dot with minor in a Division where major could not use a dot would be different and interesting.  

[twodownzero]

49 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

Another question I have is how adding divisions taking away from another members fun?

 

Adding Carry Optics and rifles to this game ruined the enjoyment for me.  I just let my membership lapse after 15 years.  Nobody cares about the 10 shot divisions anymore and the entire thing has simply become a hose fest.  The last straw for me was a 30 round stage broken into "strings" even though it had one array of targets and one shooting area where I got to do standing reloads for the entire stage. 

 

Destroying major power factor by having the two largest divisions also left behind a principle of practical shooting.  That never should have been allowed.

 

We have always had a place for Carry Optics and Limited Optics--in Open.  We avoided an arms race for 25+ years which all ended with someone opening Pandora's box and now there is no fixing it.  Optics should have never, ever been allowed outside of Open.

[Jim Watson]

Now we only need three divisions

Optic and compensator (old Open)

Optic no compensator (new LO + old CO)

Iron sight.  Any gun, who cares, they are all obsolete.  

 

[Boomstick303]

24 minutes ago, touji said:

It may not matter to us at the local level and those who are not competing for trophies at the match level. However, it costs the organization money to run national matches.

 

Unless LO becomes as or more popular than CO, it will never have a stand alone Nationals so this is a moot point.  

[Joe4d]

39 minutes ago, akarhi said:

bruh so dumb to have 2 different division just combine the 2 (LO and CO). No need to split prize pool nor the division pool

probably the long term goal... If they tried it now to many people that dont understand guns will have hissy fits.
Shoot it like this for a couple years and it will pretty much prove there is no difference in internal or external single actions for this game.

[touji]

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Unless LO becomes as or more popular than CO, it will never have a stand alone Nationals so this is a moot point.  

We may never see another 9 days of nationals, but it still costs money in a combined nats event. 

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

Optics should have never, ever been allowed outside of Open

 

That is an opinion you are entitled to but few agree with.  40 is dying and lets be honest, not many can afford Open.  People are gong to want to shoot with optics without having to shoot open.  Major PF in general seems to be loosing steam.  While I do not like the idea of that its a fact.  We have few Open and Limited shooters it seems to me.  Especially when it comes comparing those numbers to CO.  

 

I get what you are saying about courses of fire, but to me that is more of a MD thing than a division thing.  If you have good MDs this does not happen.  

 

[ampleworks]

Keeping it minor scoring, just as well changed CO to allow single action and throw out the production gun list.

 

This division makes absolutely no sense and it's not going to attract enough new shooters. Single Stack was brought about with the idea that "everyone has a 1911 in their safe, bring it and compete" ... that didn't grow the sport by any large numbers.

[Boomstick303]

Just now, touji said:

but it still costs money in a combined nats event. 

 

450 shooters are 450 shooters regardless of how the divisions break down for a given Nationals.   Trophies and ribbons are not why USPSA is loosing money putting on Nationals.  

 

 

[GrumpyOne]

Well, one good thing about this...it killed the yelling (maybe temporarily) for "A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want".

[akarhi]

4 minutes ago, touji said:

We may never see another 9 days of nationals, but it still costs money in a combined nats event. 

9 days of national jesus christ thats so long

[ksy1]

10 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

Adding Carry Optics and rifles to this game ruined the enjoyment for me.  I just let my membership lapse after 15 years.  Nobody cares about the 10 shot divisions anymore and the entire thing has simply become a hose fest.  The last straw for me was a 30 round stage broken into "strings" even though it had one array of targets and one shooting area where I got to do standing reloads for the entire stage. 

 

Destroying major power factor by having the two largest divisions also left behind a principle of practical shooting.  That never should have been allowed.

 

We have always had a place for Carry Optics and Limited Optics--in Open.  We avoided an arms race for 25+ years which all ended with someone opening Pandora's box and now there is no fixing it.  Optics should have never, ever been allowed outside of Open.

 

Like it or not, CO has done a lot of good for the sport and has brought in a lot of people. The division has appeal because a lot of people have optics on handguns now and it is going to continue to grow, just like it did for rifles 15 years ago.

 

We could also get rid of power factor since it's completely antiquated. No one cares about shooting .40 or .45 ACP anymore, and all major in open guns does is destroy them. This really only affects two divisions, and Limited is already on its way out because no one wants to shoot irons anymore.

[ksy1]

23 minutes ago, touji said:

Another thing a friend and I were talking about... it would also be cool to allow A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want Optics to compete in the same division as Limited Major Irons. We've seen through a lot of match results that CO is very similar to Limited. 

 

This is the best solution IMO. Roll optics into Limited so we don't have to deal with creating a new division, and we'll have some new energy into Limited.

[touji]

5 minutes ago, ksy1 said:

 

Like it or not, CO has done a lot of good for the sport and has brought in a lot of people. The division has appeal because a lot of people have optics on handguns now and it is going to continue to grow, just like it did for rifles 15 years ago.

 

We could also get rid of power factor since it's completely antiquated. No one cares about shooting .40 or .45 ACP anymore, and all major in open guns does is destroy them. This really only affects two divisions, and Limited is already on its way out because no one wants to shoot irons anymore.

 

Removing Irons would do more bad than good. If anything, it should roll up into low cap irons and hi-cap irons and leave it at that. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, deerslayer said:

EXACTLY

 

And they are not going to cut their existing guns to shoot L10 optics, which will apparently allow major. 

If optics is added to L10, I will probably get one of my 45's milled for an optic and shoot it. sounds like the perfect division for us senior-stack shooters with aging eyes.

[mikeg1005]

This is stupid.  Just allow 2011s and whatever other gun people want to throw a dot on in Carry Optics.   The perceived advantage of a SA trigger is a bulls#!t reason to create a new division which will result it further killing open and poaching people from limited.  

 

[motosapiens]

6 minutes ago, ksy1 said:

We could also get rid of power factor since it's completely antiquated. No one cares about shooting .40 or .45 ACP anymore, and all major in open guns does is destroy them. This really only affects two divisions, and Limited is already on its way out because no one wants to shoot irons anymore.

 

I care about shooting 40 and 45. My entire agency (300 officers) all shoot 40.

 

And properly built open guns last a long long long time shooting major. But poorly built guns that either cut corners or pursue diminishing returns at the expense of durability may not lost as long.

[mikeg1005]

3 minutes ago, ksy1 said:

 

This is the best solution IMO. Roll optics into Limited so we don't have to deal with creating a new division, and we'll have some new energy into Limited.

 

We already have a division with limited guns and dots.  Its called open.   

 

Limited is the 2nd or very narrowly 3rd most active division in USPSA year to year.  Leave it alone. 

[Chillywig]

Thinking like the local match guy I am -  I bet lots of CO shooters will jump to LO with the gear they have. I can put the mag well back on my CO gun and get a fancy race holster vs using a cut up a production type holster to accommodate my hUUUge thumb rest. CO is already a long way away from production guns with a red dot

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

probably the long term goal... If they tried it now to many people that dont understand guns will have hissy fits.
Shoot it like this for a couple years and it will pretty much prove there is no difference in internal or external single actions for this game.

even if there is no measurable performance difference, that won't stop the inevitable. If SAO guns are allowed in CO, within a few years SAO 2011's will constitute the overwhelming majority of guns in CO, just like they do in every other division where they are allowed.

[Bdh821]

45 minutes ago, akarhi said:

I wish they modernize the RO program. THhe current RO program is terrible how it is setup. The 8 hours in the class is brutal for someone who has to travel an hour to a location and do it 3 more times.

This is why I never became an official RO.  too much work.

 

 

On the topic of limited optics, couldnt someone just slap a magwell on a CO gun and call it a LO gun now? Such as my P320 CO gun be a LO gun with magwell?  that magwell will def put me in the top 5% of the division! 

[ksy1]

2 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

We already have a division with limited guns and dots.  Its called open.   

 

Limited is the 2nd or very narrowly 3rd most active division in USPSA year to year.  Leave it alone. 

 

I'm fine with this too.

 

Limited is only as active as it is because of new shooters who can bring what guns they have already. I see less and less new shooters doing that every month at my match now, since almost all new shooters I have coming have optics on their handguns.

[mikeg1005]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

even if there is no measurable performance difference, that won't stop the inevitable. If SAO guns are allowed in CO, within a few years SAO 2011's will constitute the overwhelming majority of guns in CO, just like they do in every other division where they are allowed.

Who cares?  This is a competitive shooting sport, let people decide what they want to shoot. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by mikeg1005

[touji]

1 minute ago, Bdh821 said:

This is why I never became an official RO.  too much work.

 

 

On the topic of limited optics, couldnt someone just slap a magwell on a CO gun and call it a LO gun now? Such as my P320 CO gun be a LO gun with magwell?  that magwell will def put me in the top 5% of the division! 

That's correct. This is the issue I have with the lack of differentiation between the divisions. The only thing that will "really" be different between the guns will be a magwell.

[shred]

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

And properly built open guns last a long long long time shooting major. But poorly built guns that either cut corners or pursue diminishing returns at the expense of durability may not lost as long.

Anyone that thinks Major needs to "go away" doesn't shoot a lot of Major and doesn't know what it enables.

 

I just finished the World Shoot with a 20 year old Open gun with 200K+ major rounds on it.... yeah, well built they can last although you might need a new barrel every 75K.