Limited Optics

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

So you are saying that LO will be  the division that most people actually want to shoot, with the guns that most people actually want to shoot. So is that a bad thing? I don't think so

 

EXACTLY!!

 

Are we back to the "Saving Divisions" discussion again?

[shred]

1 minute ago, Bdh821 said:

PCC FTW HOA! 

Not with a good Open shooter in the mix.

[mikeg1005]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

So you are saying that LO will be  the division that most people actually want to shoot, with the guns that most people actually want to shoot. So is that a bad thing? I don't think so

 

 Yes because you're going to have 1000s of members with existing gear that will go obsolete because the division will die.

 

You see how that's a problem right?    

[mikeg1005]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

EXACTLY!!

 

Are we back to the "Saving Divisions" discussion again?

 

No we are back to the not f*#king over existing members with existing gear to cater to newbies and gun manufacturers.  

 

You're not saving open or limited, it works fine now and doesn't need saving.  You're going to kill it like CO killed production.  

Edited December 28, 2022 by mikeg1005

[Bdh821]

Just now, touji said:

I'm surprised they even gave you 10 replacements. I've heard stories of people who couldn't get any support on their cracked DVC guns.

To clarify, this was between 2 DVC-O's.   I never owned 2 at the same time tho.  1 was always back at the factory.  They also rebuilt 1 but did such a poor job I made them send me a new one in replacement of it. 

[Boomstick303]

Just now, mikeg1005 said:

No we are back to the not f*#king over existing members with existing gear to cater to newbies and gun manufacturers.

 

Last I checked REVO, L10, Single Stack, and Production are a thing.  

 

Or did they kill those Divisions without telling anyone.  

 

More and more affordable SAO 2011s are showing up amongst the ones that already exist.  I am not F8#king over anyone in shooting in CO or LO.  Its not stopping anyone from shooting in their division of choice. 

 

Tech is moving on in the gun world.  Current and/or new divisions should reflect these changes like it or not.  

 

[Bdh821]

3 minutes ago, shred said:

Not with a good Open shooter in the mix.

I just searched Dragons Cup results for 2021...  HOA, Max Leograndis / PCC.  That match was stacked with top Open shooters 

 

 

but I do agree with you as MOST wont get to his level.  other than Justine

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

 Yes because you're going to have 1000s of members with existing gear that will go obsolete because the division will die.

 

You see how that's a problem right?    

 

Divisions die anyway. I have a single stack gun but nobody likes to shoot single stack anymore, I have a production gun but nobody likes to shoot production anymore, and I have a limited gun but nobody likes to shoot limited anymore. Time Marches on and things get obsolete.

 

 

Nobody drives a model t anymore for a reason, trying to save a model t and not let people drive the vehicle they want seems kind of dumb

[shred]

3 minutes ago, Bdh821 said:

To clarify, this was between 2 DVC-O's.   I never owned 2 at the same time tho.  1 was always back at the factory.  They also rebuilt 1 but did such a poor job I made them send me a new one in replacement of it. 

...and there we have why STI got out of the competition pistol business.   

[Boomstick303]

Just now, RJH said:

Nobody drives a model t anymore for a reason, trying to save a model t and not let people drive the vehicle they want seems kind of dumb

 

Nah, we need to dictate what people need to shoot instead of what they want to shoot.   

[shred]

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

 

Nah, we need to dictate what people need to shoot instead of what they want to shoot.   

Yeah, that "all guns compete together equally" thing Jeff Cooper came up with is so quaint.

 

[mikeg1005]

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

 

Last I checked REVO, L10, Single Stack, and Production are a thing.  

 

Or did they kill those Divisions without telling anyone.  

 

More and more affordable SAO 2011s are showing up amongst the ones that already exist.  I am not F8#king over anyone in shooting in CO or LO.  Its not stopping anyone from shooting in their division of choice. 

 

Tech is moving on in the gun world.  Current and/or new divisions should reflect these changes like it or not.  

 

 

L10 should not be a thing and SS was never going to make it because like you said tech advances and no one buys 1911s anymore... but that's a whole separate discussion.  

 

To your point.. current divisions should reflect tech changes.   They already do, you can shoot a SAO 2011 with a slide mounted optic in open.  So why not do we need LO? 

[RJH]

Just now, shred said:

Yeah, that "all guns compete together equally" thing Jeff Cooper came up with is so quaint.

 

 

I would actually be fine with this, but there's a bunch of people that wouldn't

[Bdh821]

1 minute ago, shred said:

...and there we have why STI got out of the competition pistol business.   

Good riddance!  Their customer service SUCKED!

[rowdyb]

9 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

 Yes because you're going to have 1000s of members with existing gear that will go obsolete because the division will die.

 

You see how that's a problem right?    

Sunk cost is a proven logical fallacy.

[mikeg1005]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Divisions die anyway. I have a single stack gun but nobody likes to shoot single stack anymore, I have a production gun but nobody likes to shoot production anymore, and I have a limited gun but nobody likes to shoot limited anymore. Time Marches on and things get obsolete.

 

 

Nobody drives a model t anymore for a reason, trying to save a model t and not let people drive the vehicle they want seems kind of dumb

 

SS was bound to die.

Production died because USPSA created CO. 

You want to do that to limited guns and open guns?  

 

USPSA already has a division for model Ts, its called Revo and SS LOLOLOL. 

[shred]

2 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

They already do, you can shoot a SAO 2011 with a slide mounted optic in open.  So why not do we need LO? 

Same reason nobody shoots 5-shot J-frames in Open even though you can do that too.

 

[mikeg1005]

1 minute ago, shred said:

Same reason nobody shoots 5-shot J-frames in Open even though you can do that too.

 

 

They can shoot those in revolver though.  Since its a revolver.  

 

And a LO is a gun with a dot, dots belong in open. 

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

L10 should not be a thing and SS was never going to make it because like you said tech advances and no one buys 1911s anymore... but that's a whole separate discussion.

 

So you think this will never apply to Major PF?  

 

Think again.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

SS was bound to die.

Production died because USPSA created CO. 

You want to do that to limited guns and open guns?  

 

USPSA already has a division for model Ts, its called Revo and SS LOLOLOL. 

 

Carryops as it is now is also eating heavily into limited and open. People shoot it because it's cheap ammo, easy on the guns, and you get a dot. They do it for all those reasons in spite of the fact that they don't actually get to shoot the gun they would like to shoot, might as well let them have the gun they want to shoot. The other option that I prefer would just be let single action only guns in carry ops, but a lot of people don't like that either cuz they're scared of single action only guns

[Boomstick303]

Just now, mikeg1005 said:

dots belong in open. 

 

In your Opinion.  Based on what?  USPSA?  Because the mass civilian populous is running around shooting Major PF?

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Does this add shooters ?

or take shooters from existing divisions. 
Idk I think at this point they should have just let SA in CO. 
This class seems to take from CO and maybe even some open and limited shooter. 
Still thinking on this divisions concept 

[mikeg1005]

2 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Sunk cost is a proven logical fallacy.

 

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

 

In your Opinion.  Based on what?  USPSA?  Because the mass civilian populous is running around shooting Major PF?

 

Who cares about the massive civilian population.  USPSA is a competitive sport with a set of rules that people adhere to if they want to shoot it.  Same as any other shooting discipline.  This idea that we need to cater to what the world does only came up with the previous administration wanted to grow massive funds to raise their own incomes.   

 

Its not in my opinion, its in the rules.  If you put a dot on a gun, you go it open.  So like I said, we have a place for people who want to shooot 2011s with slide mounted optics.  Open.  

[mikeg1005]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 The other option that I prefer would just be let single action only guns in carry ops, but a lot of people don't like that either cuz they're scared of single action only guns

 

This would make the most sense but it would still have the same results of poaching other divisions.  The idea that SAO are an advantage is a fallacy that I wish people would get over.  

The bigger issue I see is that you weight of the gun though... you can roll up with a 60oz gun in CO if you allow SAOs in CO.  

Edited December 28, 2022 by mikeg1005

[motosapiens]

50 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

Who cares?  This is a competitive shooting sport, let people decide what they want to shoot. 

people can already shoot what they want to shoot. That is not the same thing as changing the rules to give a certain expensive flavor of gun a competitive advantage in a division that is already extremely popular without those guns.