Limited Optics

[rowdyb]

No one shooting 40 major will tune their gun to shoot 40 minor and get it milled for a dot.

[echotango]

1 minute ago, rowdyb said:

No one shooting 40 major will tune their gun to shoot 40 minor and get it milled for a dot.

exactly.  LO is a stupid div. 

[RJH]

1 minute ago, rowdyb said:

No one shooting 40 major will tune their gun to shoot 40 minor and get it milled for a dot.

 

Spring change and a bomar plate is too big a change? Or was you joking?

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

If this becomes a provisional division they'll all be super happy to have another place to compete with a gun, an expensive one, they already own.

 

Not only this it gives Limited shooters a place to go that do not want to shoot open once their eyes go.  I have had discussions with several Open shooters that have indicated they would gladly shoot something like Limited Optics.  I do not think most will convert their current Limited guns to Limited Optics.  They would most likely sell that rig to get a 9mm 2011.

 

I am not sure that it will bring a ton of new people on board.  It will most likely cannibalize other divisions initially.  

 

[Boomstick303]

I find it funny how many people cried about not changing CO to allow SA guns and yet still cry now that there is a completely separate division.  I guess they will always have something to cry about.  

 

Another question I have is how adding divisions taking away from another members fun?

 

[touji]

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

I find it funny how many people cried about not changing CO to allow SA guns and yet still cry now that there is a completely separate division.  I guess they will always have something to cry about.  

 

Another question I have is how adding divisions taking away from another members fun?

 

For one, it’s another potential National’s event. I’m all for allowing SAO guns in CO and I’m all for a LO division as long as there is enough tangible difference between the two divisions. This is like adding a PCC classic division where you cannot use a magwell and that’s the only difference in the equipment rule set. 

[RJH]

1 minute ago, echotango said:

exactly.  LO is a stupid div. 

 

While I would rather see Sao guns allowed in carryouts, that would cause too many tears by people.

 

Limited optics is actually a pretty solid idea. There are several manufacturers making Sao guns with optic cuts, in 9 mm, that work with factory 9mm ammo. But basically no one makes a 40 anymore other than a full custom gun, or a Glock LOL. 

 

So you get a gun that people actually enjoy shooting, in  a readily available, easy on the gun, and cheap caliber.  It's also a division that allows more modifications, so for the people who wanted to shoot carry ops with a magwell, there's a place for that now, too.

 

And it does all that without adding the expense, finickiness, and abuse on the gun of open

[deerslayer]

19 minutes ago, touji said:

the problem I see is that it wont even be the Limited guys who are throwing red dots on their existing guns since there is no major scoring (hence it doesn’t make sense to cut their existing guns). 

EXACTLY

 

And they are not going to cut their existing guns to shoot L10 optics, which will apparently allow major. 

[touji]

After what happened at Nats this year, I don’t think people would be that mad at SAO guns being allowed in CO. The only people who would be mad are the people who are getting beat shooting their 2011s and the people who think that dumping more money on guns will help them beat anyone. 
 

Nils also showed that pf may not be as big of a deal as it was before. Let people shoot 40 major in LO

[Boomstick303]

5 minutes ago, touji said:

For one, it’s another potential National’s event. I’m all for allowing SAO guns in CO and I’m all for a LO division as long as there is enough tangible difference between the two divisions.

 

I have advocated for allowing SA guns to CO.  I don't care either way.  I think it will be interesting on how LO works out if its actually going to be a thing.  

 

Something I think many are not acknowledging is the advances in tech again.  We are seeing more and more reasonably priced SA 2011 guns on the market.  That with all of the SA guns already out there, I cannot see why there is not a place other than open to shoot them.  A vast majority will cry about this division.  In the end it will most likely become the most or second most popular division.  No matter how much people whine about it.  

Edited December 28, 2022 by Boomstick303

[SV650Squid]

I'd just put extended safeties on my Shadow.

 

There's effectively no performance difference between the two.

 

I can see Prodigies selling like hotcakes (gee, I wonder if Springfield and Atlas had any input on this...).

[RJH]

Just now, touji said:

After what happened at Nats this year, I don’t think people would be that mad at SAO guns being allowed in CO. The only people who would be mad are the people who are getting beat shooting their 2011s and the people who think that dumping more money on guns will help them beat anyone. 
 

Nils also showed that pf may not be as big of a deal as it was before. Let people shoot 40 major in LO

 

This is true, but people are awful scared of Sao guns so I don't see it happening lol

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

people are awful scared of Sao guns

 

[touji]

Just now, RJH said:

 

This is true, but people are awful scared of Sao guns so I don't see it happening lol

If feelings are going to be hurt either way, I hope that the BOD goes about this in the way that makes the most sense for the organization. With so little difference, they’ll end up just giving out two different trophies for essentially identical divisions

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, touji said:

If feelings are going to be hurt either way, I hope that the BOD goes about this in the way that makes the most sense for the organization. With so little difference, they’ll end up just giving out two different trophies for essentially identical divisions

 

While I agree 100%, when I and others have brought up allowing single action guns in carry ops, there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth. 

 

I think what will eventually happen once limited optics is a division, is people will see that in the overalls the scores are interchangeable between limited optics and carry optics. When that happens I would love it if they would just combine the divisions and be done with it, but who knows on that front

[akarhi]

bruh so dumb to have 2 different division just combine the 2 (LO and CO). No need to split prize pool nor the division pool

[touji]

1 minute ago, akarhi said:

bruh so dumb to have 2 different division just combine the 2 (LO and CO). No need to split prize pool nor the division pool

Honestly, I would be happiest if they made LO into its own division similar to what CO is today. Then turn CO into 15 round division to better mimic what IPSC does because USPSA has strayed away a lot from IPSC. Although USA sweeped most divisions at world shoot, most people had to load to 15 to practice for it. Same with the match coming up this January. 

[akarhi]

1 minute ago, touji said:

Honestly, I would be happiest if they made LO into its own division similar to what CO is today. Then turn CO into 15 round division to better mimic what IPSC does because USPSA has strayed away a lot from IPSC. Although USA sweeped most divisions at world shoot, most people had to load to 15 to practice for it. Same with the match coming up this January. 

lmao making CO 15 rounds is gonna be bad. Imagine all the companies and people who uses extended baseplates and spring. If the length doesnt matter then great but it does matter its gonna huge mess. IMO people who need 25 rounds in a mag shouldnt be trying to cram more round in a magazine they should try to reload instead

[Boomstick303]

6 minutes ago, touji said:

With so little difference, they’ll end up just giving out two different trophies for essentially identical divisions

 

Why does this matter?  If somehow it did matter how much of the membership does it affect?

 

Funny how trophies and prize tables are even a topic of discussion.  How many matches and events happen in USPSA every year where no trophies and/or prizes are given out.  Who gives a Fu(k!!

 

Just now, touji said:

Honestly, I would be happiest if they made LO into its own division similar to what CO is today. Then turn CO into 15 round division to better mimic what IPSC does because USPSA has strayed away a lot from IPSC.

 

Best suggestion I have seen on this topic to date.   Increase Production round count to 15 rounds the same as your proposed CO limit, then the same gun can be used for both divisions with just the change of the sighting mechanism.  Yes, I get people already shoot production and CO with the same gun already, but this would just streamline the divisions.  

[akarhi]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Why does this matter?  If somehow it did matter how much of the membership does it affect?

 

Funny how trophies and prize tables are even a topic of discussion.  How many matches and events happen in USPSA every year where no trophies and/or prizes are given out.  Who gives a Fu(k!!

 

 

Membership might increase or decrease who knows with this but there is absolutely no reason to create a new division. Just make merge it with CO

 

[touji]

3 minutes ago, akarhi said:

lmao making CO 15 rounds is gonna be bad. Imagine all the companies and people who uses extended baseplates and spring. If the length doesnt matter then great but it does matter its gonna huge mess. IMO people who need 25 rounds in a mag shouldnt be trying to cram more round in a magazine they should try to reload instead

They can just shoot Limited Optics instead. You'll be removing some folks who want to shoot big sticks into a new division. At least it isn't cannibalizing divisions. 

 

2 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Why does this matter?  If somehow it did matter how much of the membership does it affect?

 

Funny how trophies and prize tables are even a topic of discussion.  How many matches and events happen in USPSA every year where no trophies and/or prizes are given out.  Who gives a Fu(k!!

 

It may not matter to us at the local level and those who are not competing for trophies at the match level. However, it costs the organization money to run national matches. Money that can be spent helping out MDs and Areas to actually grow the sport. More training to modernize the RO / CRO program and/or providing more perks for staff. 

[akarhi]

1 minute ago, touji said:

They can just shoot Limited Optics instead. You'll be removing some folks who want to shoot big sticks into a new division. At least it isn't cannibalizing divisions. 

 

I guess so but still stupid to water down CO to make LO.

 

2 minutes ago, touji said:

It may not matter to us at the local level and those who are not competing for trophies at the match level. However, it costs the organization money to run national matches. Money that can be spent helping out MDs and Areas to actually grow the sport. More training to modernize the RO / CRO program and/or providing more perks for staff. 

I wish they modernize the RO program. THhe current RO program is terrible how it is setup. The 8 hours in the class is brutal for someone who has to travel an hour to a location and do it 3 more times.

[Nathanb]

41 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

I find it funny how many people cried about not changing CO to allow SA guns and yet still cry now that there is a completely separate division.  I guess they will always have something to cry about.  

 

Another question I have is how adding divisions taking away from another members fun?

 

For me it’s the miss of limited optic. It’s not. Or it’d have major power factor. if it’s limited optics make it like limited irons with a dot 

[shred]

Lim-Optics the way its written is going to hollow out CO because there's minimal differentiation-- All those guns can compete reasonably well in LO as-is, but they can add magwells and whatnot (anyone that pooh-poohs magwells, go look at the Open & Limited super squad gats and report back).  We've already got a few P320X5 shooters in the club that shoot Open because they want the magwell more than they care about being in CO.

 

Also, mandatory-dot is still dumb.  

[touji]

Another thing a friend and I were talking about... it would also be cool to allow A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want Optics to compete in the same division as Limited Major Irons. We've seen through a lot of match results that CO is very similar to Limited.