Limited Optics

[shred]

Using Area matches because nobody will run a heads-up nationals anymore:

 

Area 1 Giordano in LTD barely beats Max in CO who is closely followed by Shane in LTD.

Area 2 6 or 7 CO shooters whomp on Limited winner by 10%.

Area 3 Max is 2nd overall w/CO and 1st Limited is 11th, behind Hetherington in Prod

Area 4 Dahzi 2nd overall beats Blake in LTD by about 1%

Area 5 Nils, Max and Tom Castro in CO and Hetherington in PD beat Browning in LTD by 5-10%

Area 6 Max, JJ and a couple others in CO beat Browning in LTD by 5%

Area 7 Mason wins HOA in CO, Shane in Ltd is 91%

Area 8 Mason, JJ & Nils in CO beat LTD winner by 5%

 

Looks like CO in the hands of a top shooter is anywhere from a wash to 10% winner over Limited Major as of 2022 Area matches and who was shooting what.  

 

It's not a perfect comparison since I didn't bother to mangle the data and remove the Open and PCC winners out and so on.  Somebody else can do that if they care.

 

It also might be interesting to compare 1st M or A in both to take out the super-shooter ("Nils") factor to see if that skews any.

 

 

 

[pskys2]

4 hours ago, YVK said:

Isn't the point of provisional divisions to allow the membership, through participation, non-participation, or patterns of participation, to provide a real life feedback on what membership wants or doesn't want? Nobody wanted to play in CO until rules were changed.  If 20 people showed up with 40sw LO guns and 2000 -  with Prodigies, Staccatos etc, it will a) be factually a minor division and b)  almost invariably be made formally a minor division when it is made permanent. 

All that people need to do is to shoot this division the way they think it should be for years to come, not the way they will get better scores over others during the provisional phase. 

But isn't shooting better scores the way any division should be shot, isn't that the whole idea of competition?

[motosapiens]

8 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

From what I understand he used to be a limited shooter with 2011's. So he should know both sides. But it's not like he's shooting for Atlas while talking about lowering major PF and adding a minor 2011 division like some podcasters. That seems pretty transparent. 

correct. Kenny first made GM with a 2011 in limited, and unlike the rest of us, he's not an obnoxious douche with an agenda. Back in the day He used to bring the heat in singlestack too. I don't always agree with him, but I always respect his opinion and give it consideration. 

 

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, RJH said:

 

No, 22 is a straw man argument because shooting 22 completely changes the game, because you can't knock steel over with a 22.

if we're throwing out major pf, ain't no reason we can't throw out steel too. Stop being a fudd.

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

if we're throwing out major pf, ain't no reason we can't throw out steel too. Stop being a fudd.

 

 

I think we should all be fudds, go back to NINTEN ELEBEN N 45AARP AMD QUIT WITH AL THIS KNWW FANGLE MINOR PUSSIFICATION AN SKOPS SHUTE 45 NINTEEN LEBEN 3006 GARAND LIK GOD AND JOHN BROWNING INTINDED 

 

GOBBLESS

 

 

[YVK]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

That sounds like a thing lots of people will do.  Oh wait no,  

 

If lots of people choose LO major, that would be a pretty good indicator that this is what the division should be. 

[motosapiens]

22 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

I think we should all be fudds, go back to NINTEN ELEBEN N 45AARP AMD QUIT WITH AL THIS KNWW FANGLE MINOR PUSSIFICATION AN SKOPS SHUTE 45 NINTEEN LEBEN 3006 GARAND LIK GOD AND JOHN BROWNING INTINDED 

 

GOBBLESS

 

 

this is actually the most intelligent post in this entire thread.

[cheby]

27 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

I think we should all be fudds, go back to NINTEN ELEBEN N 45AARP AMD QUIT WITH AL THIS KNWW FANGLE MINOR PUSSIFICATION AN SKOPS SHUTE 45 NINTEEN LEBEN 3006 GARAND LIK GOD AND JOHN BROWNING INTINDED 

 

GOBBLESS

 

 

LOL. Good one 

[YVK]

31 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

But isn't shooting better scores the way any division should be shot, isn't that the whole idea of competition?

 

My opinion only: with permanent divisions, certainly. Provisional divisions are the opportunity for members to shape the direction and to some extent negate the paternalistic "we give you the division minor, or the division major, or whatever else" from the board. If folks don't see it that way and just want to run off to the races, well, we get what we deserve. 

While the division is provisional, I am going to shoot it minor. When it is permanent, that may change. 

 

 

 

[firerain]

21 hours ago, YVK said:

 

If lots of people choose LO major, that would be a pretty good indicator that this is what the division should be. 

Sounds like an option. Just keep in mind that there is no such gun for major pf for sell yet, and even there will be, the major pf could make any red dot on slide so easy to break and turn into maintenance nightmare.

[MikeRussell]

55 minutes ago, firerain said:

Sounds like an option. Just keep in mind that there is no such gun for major pf for sell yet, and even there will be, the major pf could make any red dot on slide so easy to break and turn into maintenance nightmare.

 

Let the market and shooters figure out the lifespan of the mounts/dots on a major pf gun. I've got a spare 40 slide that I'd have milled and run it on my backup gun to try it out and see how long a Holosun and/or SRO will last with 172pf ammo...I've been considering doing it anyway. But somehow, I think it'd be OK or improvements would be made, seeing as there are 45s and 10mms running around in the wild already with dots on the slide.

[firerain]

1 hour ago, MikeRussell said:

 

Let the market and shooters figure out the lifespan of the mounts/dots on a major pf gun. I've got a spare 40 slide that I'd have milled and run it on my backup gun to try it out and see how long a Holosun and/or SRO will last with 172pf ammo...I've been considering doing it anyway. But somehow, I think it'd be OK or improvements would be made, seeing as there are 45s and 10mms running around in the wild already with dots on the slide.

more variety is good thing, hope it all works out one way or the other

[pskys2]

13 hours ago, MikeRussell said:

 

Let the market and shooters figure out the lifespan of the mounts/dots on a major pf gun. I've got a spare 40 slide that I'd have milled and run it on my backup gun to try it out and see how long a Holosun and/or SRO will last with 172pf ammo...I've been considering doing it anyway. But somehow, I think it'd be OK or improvements would be made, seeing as there are 45s and 10mms running around in the wild already with dots on the slide.

Those in the wild probably don't see 10,000+rounds per year though.  But lifespan would be a consideration that would be overcome.  My question would be how well, or easily, the dot could be handled with major pf and no comp to help with recoil.  There is a reason the heavy minor pf dot guns are popular.

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Those in the wild probably don't see 10,000+rounds per year though.  But lifespan would be a consideration that would be overcome.  My question would be how well, or easily, the dot could be handled with major pf and no comp to help with recoil.  There is a reason the heavy minor pf dot guns are popular.

yep, major would probably be a disadvantage with all that recoil. So we might as well allow it since minor shooters will dominate.

[pskys2]

47 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

yep, major would probably be a disadvantage with all that recoil. So we might as well allow it since minor shooters will dominate.

Don't have a problem with that thought, just don't think that will be the deciding factor in who dominates.

[Rich406]

looks like LO is live on 5/1. No details on the exact division rules. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CpPaYQZA0cM/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, Rich406 said:

looks like LO is live on 5/1. No details on the exact division rules. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CpPaYQZA0cM/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

Would have been nice if he would have said provisional rules that they published were what were being used for sure, but since he didn't specify I bet the provisional rules as published is what will be used

[RobW]

 

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

Would have been nice if he would have said provisional rules that they published were what were being used for sure, but since he didn't specify I bet the provisional rules as published is what will be used

I emailed Area 8, this is what he sent me. HHF to be based on Open division to start, recalibrated every three weeks:

 

 

20221220 USPSA Limited Optics Provisional Divisional Rules Recommendation.pdf

[uhmeebuh]

I look forward to sucking just as hard as I did in CO with a more expensive gun 

[RJH]

2 hours ago, RobW said:

 

I emailed Area 8, this is what he sent me. HHF to be based on Open division to start, recalibrated every three weeks:

 

 

20221220 USPSA Limited Optics Provisional Divisional Rules Recommendation.pdf 91.42 kB · 45 downloads

 

 

For some reason I can't open that file, was it any different than the original proposed division?

[davsco]

haven't really kept up.  so is this basically Limited division with the addition of slide-mounted dots, but minor power factor scoring and 9mm minimum caliber?

[Rich406]

15 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

For some reason I can't open that file, was it any different than the original proposed division?

Looked exactly the same. 
I’d like to see something directly from USPSA though. 

[Sinister4]

1 hour ago, uhmeebuh said:

I look forward to sucking just as hard as I did in CO with a more expensive gun 

yeah me too  hahaha  

[cheby]

15 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

For some reason I can't open that file, was it any different than the original proposed division?

Copied and Pasted:

 

Limited Optics Minimum power factor for major - Not applicable

Minimum power factor for minor - 125

Minimum bullet weight - No

Minimum cartridge dimensions - 9x19 (0.354 x 0.748”)

Minimum trigger pull - No

Maximum handgun size- No

Maximum Magazine Length - 5.561” (141.25mm) or 6.742” (171.25mm) in single stack guns only

Maximum ammunition capacity- No

Maximum distance of handgun and mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt - Handgun and Mags – 3 3/8” (length of an overlay)

Optical/electronic sights permitted - Optical/electronic sights REQUIRED; must be attached directly to slide between rear of slide and ejection port, and may not be mounted to the frame in any way

Installed flashlights permitted - Yes. Inoperable units used as weights: Yes.

Use of of lasers allowed Compensators and/ or barrel porting permitted - No

Slide ports Milling of slide permitted - A slide may be modified specifically for the purpose of installing optical sights or cocking serrations. Textured finishes, grip tape, milling or stippling on the slide to provide texture is also allowed. Cuts designed to specifically or significantly lighten the slide, such as holes, are allowed

After market slides and barrels - SLIDES: You may replace the slide with an OFM or aftermarket slide BARRELS: You may replace the barrel with an OFM or aftermarket barrel

Sight blocks permitted - Yes Magwells permitted - Yes

Thumb rest permitted - Yes

Slide Rackers permitted - Yes

Maximum weight - No

Handgun specifically approved for Division - Not applicable

Holster restrictions - No

[mrvip27]

I think this is the wrong move. but it is what it is.