Is 124.55 power factor minor?

[IL-SIG]

I encourage everyone to read the Competition Rules Appendix C3 in detail. A lot of the comments in this thread are not supported by the actual rules. 

[Miranda]

29 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

You're right, but nobody tells the poppers that

 

ah. forgot that aspect.

thanks

 

love it...

 

miranda

 

[Nathanb]

2 hours ago, IL-SIG said:

I encourage everyone to read the Competition Rules Appendix C3 in detail. A lot of the comments in this thread are not supported by the actual rules. 

I’m just here for the conspiracy theories. 

[Miranda]

1 hour ago, Nathanb said:

I’m just here for the conspiracy theories. 

ah that is good n funny

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 hours ago, IL-SIG said:

 A lot of the comments in this thread are not supported by the actual rules. 

 

Not surprising

[Miranda]

22 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Not surprising

 

sometimes it is better to say nothing on my part.

 

I decided to take the chance and let you know

I do agree with you.

 

miranda

 

[euxx]

20 hours ago, IL-SIG said:

I encourage everyone to read the Competition Rules Appendix C3 in detail. A lot of the comments in this thread are not supported by the actual rules. 

This appendix is referring to manufacturer's "delivery samples" PF, but that PF doesn't seem to be published anywhere. Also the certified ammo policy says that that PF is specific to a given SKU.
 

Quote

If the samples collected during the match measure more than 10 power factor points below the delivery samples, the measured power factor of the ammo collected during the match shall be used

 

The only Sig ammo listed on USPSA web site
https://uspsa.org/ammunition

9MM, 147GR, Match Elite Competition JHP (SKU E9MMA3-COMP-50)
Caliber - 9MM Luger
Velocity - 880 fps
Bullet Weight - 147 gr.
Calculated Power Factor - 129.4
Declared Power Factor - 130
USPSA Power Factor - Minor
OAL - 1.100 +/- .010 inches

Max's ammo was about 30fps below that (the slowest one was 122 PF)
Phil's ammo was 10..30fps over that.

Edited September 15, 2022 by euxx

[Thomas H]

50 minutes ago, euxx said:

This appendix is referring to manufacturer's "delivery samples" PF, but that PF doesn't seem to be published anywhere.

 

The delivery sample is not provided by the manufacturer.

 

Troy wrote an explanation of how "declaring match ammo" works at majors, and it tells the process, including what the "delivery sample" is, and how it is compared to the match sample.

 

https://nroi.org/rules-insights/certified-ammunition-dos-and-donts/

 

The vast majority of the posts on this thread are factually wrong, and attempt to make a controversy out of a process that seems to have literally been done by the book.  (And show a situation that probably made it MORE difficult for Max during the match, because we know that occasionally having low PF rounds can give problems on steel.)

 

Max used match ammo, followed the procedures, and by the rules, was considered as making minor for the match. 

 

Unsurprisingly, people who don't know what they are talking about are attempting to say there was a problem.

 

 

[Cuz]

Not to mention the potential for gun malfunctions with underpowered ammo. 

[euxx]

2 hours ago, Thomas H said:

The vast majority of the posts on this thread are factually wrong, and attempt to make a controversy out of a process that seems to have literally been done by the book.  (And show a situation that probably made it MORE difficult for Max during the match, because we know that occasionally having low PF rounds can give problems on steel.)

 

My point is that ROs at the chrono stage haven't added complete record in the crono results of that process being completed. Eg. brand and SKU of the certified ammo used by competitors who had used certified ammo is not documented in the match results.

[Darqusoull13]

On 9/13/2022 at 9:43 AM, rowdyb said:

Who is asking about records, accountability and transparency in regards to uspsa? That is the best laugh I've had in days.

 

Is ammo and chrono a place where people try to cheat? Definitely! 

 

But as long as all the procedures were followed this is nothing. (Unlike all the times I've seen people actually cheat.)

Surely no one is claiming new components were used, put in a box and claimed to be factory? It's not like the certified ammo is a get out of jail free card after all!

For reference, actual factory Syntech 150's chronoed 136.9 PF in my Shadow 2 

[Boomstick303]

13 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

For reference, actual factory Syntech 150's chronoed 136.9 PF in my Shadow 2

 

That's fine, but you are crazy if you do not think the people would have questions if "Certified Ammo" comes in below 125 PF.  

 

500 boxes of Certified Ammo could chrono at 135+ PF, I know I still  have to ask the question of how that happens if even one box comes across at that PF of <125. 

 

I hardly think that any nefarious is afoot, but imagine being the customer that buys said box of ammo that comes in under 125 PF and does not declare it by choice or fails to declare it and fails Chrono.  That is an issue people would and should take into consideration.  Especially what it costs to Shoot a National match on your own dime.    

 

This whole conversation has been good in my eyes.  It allowed me to learn things specifics to rules I did not completely understand.  

Edited September 15, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Darqusoull13]

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

 

That's fine, but you are crazy if you do not think the people would have questions if "Certified Ammo" comes in below 125 PF.  

 

500 boxes of Certified Ammo could chrono at 135+ PF, I know I still  have to ask the question of how that happens if even one box comes across at that PF of <125. 

 

I hardly think that any nefarious is afoot, but imagine being the customer that buys said box of ammo that comes in under 125 PF and does not declare it by choice or fails to declare it and fails Chrono.  That is an issue people would and should take into consideration.  Especially what it costs to Shoot a National match on your own dime.    

 

This whole conversation has been good in my eyes.  It allowed me to learn things specifics to rules I did not completely understand.  

Nah, I don't need to declare Syntech as Certified. It's been good at so many matches for so many people I don't even bother with the form. 

What I really can't fathom is people skirting so close to sub-minor. It's a huge time investment to train up to get there in the first place.

The issue of other certified ammo coming in below PF providing a get out of jail free card was one of the original concerns with the program. Abuse like this makes folks lose faith in the system. 

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

What I really can't fathom is people skirting so close to sub-minor. It's a huge time investment to train up to get there in the first place.

 

Agreed.

[rowdyb]

On 9/15/2022 at 3:00 PM, Darqusoull13 said:

Surely no one is claiming new components were used, put in a box and claimed to be factory? It's not like the certified ammo is a get out of jail free card after all!

For reference, actual factory Syntech 150's chronoed 136.9 PF in my Shadow 2 

NO, I am not claiming that AT ALL. But I am saying other people cheat, have cheated and will cheat at chrono in all sorts of inventive ways. In no way am I saying this individual did, nor in the manner I described.

 

People other than me have seen people cheat at chrono. So sometimes people are just knee jerk suspicious. And when you don't understand the match ammo process it makes it even easier. If we started a separate thread of "ways you've actually seen people cheat at a match, NOT a story but actually witnessed" I'd have at least 6 posts to make.

[JayWord]

Normally I would just enjoy the back and forth, but to inject a couple of facts to the conversation.

Two people went sub-minor using certified ammo.  Two different manufacturers were involved.

In both cases the proper procedures were used and the delivery samples were pulled and run following normal Chrono procedures. Both were within the 10 power factor provision under the rules.

Unfortunately, there is no provision in Practiscore to enter a second set of chrono results so it is logged on paper and hand calculated. This is the same procedures we use for people who change guns.

All certified ammo forms are completed whether they make power factor or not and are forwarded to DNROI who keeps track of the results.

 

Nuff said?

 

Jay Worden-CRO 2022 CO Chronograph.

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, JayWord said:

Nuff said?

 

Absolutely!

[euxx]

19 hours ago, JayWord said:

Unfortunately, there is no provision in Practiscore to enter a second set of chrono results so it is logged on paper and hand calculated. This is the same procedures we use for people who change guns.

 

Jay, this is not completely accurate. You can record multiple chrono scores in PractiScore app, e.g. as "reshoots".

AND/OR you can also add arbitrary notes to record the followed procedures. E.g. you can state in the notes which ammo was chronographed and why, including manufacturer and SKU, and could also state any decisions there, like competitor's ammo being within 10PF from the manufacturers delivery samples.

Those notes would eliminate a lot of suspicions of the curious competitors.

[Boomstick303]

20 hours ago, JayWord said:

Both were within the 10 power factor provision under the rules.

 

This blows my mind.

[Miranda]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

This blows my mind.

 

yeah, it does...  and I can only think that variations are

more than 5 PF points and that 10 was picked for ease of math...

 

and has been pointed out, the poppers are a stumbling point.

 

I think since it is a floor, the rules for ammo with SKU should be within 10 points

of declared PF and declared PF has to be ten points over the 125 PF minimum.

 

I'd think a compromise of a declared 132 PF is in order...

mostly because britinUSA said it is his target.

I happen to agree with that.

 

miranda

 

[waktasz]

I ran chrono at the Mid-Atlantic sectional last year and Phil Strader shot Sig ammo and it took all 8 of his rounds to have his average be 125.0 IIRC. 

[IL-SIG]

and declared PF has to be ten points over the 125 PF minimum.
 

Except that is not what the actual rules say.  If we just allow any variation of the rules that someone wants, we no longer have a sport governed by a rule set. All rules were followed to the letter. If you don’t like the current rules, contact your Area Director. Otherwise, this is a bunch of complaining and whining about nothing.

[motosapiens]

I don’t think there is anything whatsoever wrong with the current rules. They worked as designed and Max got super lucky that he knocked over all the poppers even with slightly underpowered ammo. if I were him I would try to make sure that didn’t happen again.

[MHicks]

Do some shooters feel so confident that they can argue their way into a reshoot if a popper doesn't go down that it enables them to be comfortable shooting ammo that is so close to the minimum pf or slightly under? 

[motosapiens]

20 minutes ago, MHicks said:

Do some shooters feel so confident that they can argue their way into a reshoot if a popper doesn't go down that it enables them to be comfortable shooting ammo that is so close to the minimum pf or slightly under? 

I suspect that no good shooter would intentionally use low powered ammo, but different guns often give different chrono results.  The rules are clear about how to calibrate poppers so you can argue all you want but you will still suck up a mike that might cost you a national championship.

 

it’s worth noting that the guy who wins almost everything these days typically Chronos well above 130 (and also resets enthusiastically).