Is 124.55 power factor minor?

[RJH]

According to the appendix in the rule book 124.9999 does not get rounded up to 125 power factor to make minor. According to carry optics Nationals 124.55 looks to be minor. Anybody know about this?.......

 

 

Edited to add: I guess it could have been certified ammo, I forget about that being an option

Edited September 12, 2022 by RJH

[Rnlinebacker]

Certified match ammo will still pass if the sample makes it, per the rules

[vluc]

What are the conditions under which certified ammunition is fired and tested?  I really don't know enough about it, just know that my uncertified changes under different conditions so I have to account for those variables.

[ChuckS]

34 minutes ago, vluc said:

What are the conditions under which certified ammunition is fired and tested?  I really don't know enough about it, just know that my uncertified changes under different conditions so I have to account for those variables.

Appendix C3  

 

[Nathanb]

So who’s ammo was it

[vluc]

8 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Appendix C3  

 

No, I mean how is it done?  Indoors/outdoors, temperature ranges, distances, all the things we would do to chrono our own ammo under different conditions.

 

I recognize the BOD established parameters, what are they? What chronograph is used or do they do the radar one, inquiring minds want to know...

[RJH]

14 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

So who’s ammo was it

 

 

Max M 

 

 

[Nathanb]

22 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

Max M 

 

 

I think you have your answer. Is he still shooting for sig at sig sponsored nationals?

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

I think you have your answer. Is he still shooting for sig at sig sponsored nationals?

 

Yes, but he was shooting sig ammo which is a USPSA approved match ammo. So there's absolutely no conflict of interest here LOL

[Johnny_Chimpo]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Yes, but he was shooting sig ammo which is a USPSA approved match ammo. So there's absolutely no conflict of interest here LOL

 

Seems legit........

[Boomstick303]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

I guess it could have been certified ammo

 

Certified ammo does not have to be Checked, only declared if my memory serves me correct.

 

After looking into it, they still collect 8 rounds?   What is the purpose of Certified Ammo then?

Edited September 12, 2022 by Boomstick303

[RJH]

8 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Certified ammo does not have to be Checked, only declared if my memory serves me correct.

That's interesting. Maybe it was declared after it was checked and found not to make power factor, idk. 

 

And I am assuming it was sig ammo, it looks as though sig ammo is on the approved list and I would be very surprised if he wasn't shooting sig ammo

Edited September 12, 2022 by RJH

[Boomstick303]

There is this blurb about Ammo verification.  Wow, there is an insane amount of leeway for "Certified ammo".  Per the rules it would seem everything is on the up and up if I understand this correctly.

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Boomstick303

[RJH]

8 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

There is this blurb about Ammo verification.  Wow, there is an insane amount of leeway for "Certified ammo".  Per the rules it would seem everything is on the up and up if I understand this correctly.

 

 

After remembering about the certified ammo for chrono, I don't think any rules were broken. But it's really not the best look in my opinion for the sig shooter, at sig Nationals, to go subminor while shooting sig ammo, and still get scored minor. 

 

It was just the first thing that jumped in my mind was the Beretta shooter that got unDQed at the Beretta IDPA Nationals. I think somehow they figured that to be within the rules too, but it was a bad look as well

Edited September 12, 2022 by RJH

[Johnny_Chimpo]

58 minutes ago, RJH said:

 But it's really not the best look in my opinion for the sig shooter, at sig Nationals, to go subminor while shooting sig ammo, and still get scored minor.

 

Why do people love to create controversy where there is none?

 

 

 

[Miranda]

2 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Why do people love to create controversy where there is none?

 

 

 

life is more entertaining?

 

as far as optics go, even if certified was given 5 points of leeway  they'd still

be ok per the rules.  I think a threat to remove the Certification is in order.

 

miranda

[Johnny_Chimpo]

35 minutes ago, Miranda said:

 I think a threat to remove the Certification is in order.

 

Based on what data?

[Miranda]

46 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Based on what data?

interesting response...

 

The chrono says under PF for minor. 

If I had my own and un-certified ammo, what would happen to my score?

 

so Sig aimed at a pf of 125 and missed.  the cert is to show compliance and

no intention to break rules.

 

The rule was broken.

fix it or lose the certification.

 

now you may fire up some data of your own.

 

miranda

 

[outerlimits]

6 minutes ago, Miranda said:

interesting response...

 

The chrono says under PF for minor. 

If I had my own and un-certified ammo, what would happen to my score?

 

so Sig aimed at a pf of 125 and missed.  the cert is to show compliance and

no intention to break rules.

 

The rule was broken.

fix it or lose the certification.

 

now you may fire up some data of your own.

 

miranda

 

agreed.  certification has been BS for years.  

[Fishbreath]

Coming in 5PF under your declared target (see the certified ammo page on the USPSA site) is a bit suspicious, but well within the allowed range.

 

On the other hand, USPSA has no obligation to continue to certify ammo if the match samples keep on mysteriously failing to hit the target power factor, so, "Knock it off and put enough powder in" is an entirely reasonable response.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

9 hours ago, Miranda said:

interesting response...

 

The chrono says under PF for minor. 

If I had my own and un-certified ammo, what would happen to my score?

 

so Sig aimed at a pf of 125 and missed.  the cert is to show compliance and

no intention to break rules.

 

The rule was broken.

fix it or lose the certification.

 

now you may fire up some data of your own.

 

miranda

 

 

The data I am asking you to provide is the average velocity of three sample rounds from the official delivery sample at nationals.

 

Because if Michel's ammo is less than 10 PF points away from the control sample average, his ammo passes.

 

You do have that data, don't you?

Edited September 13, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo
Corrected to match exact rulebook verbiage.

[RJH]

20 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

The data I am asking you to provide is the average velocity of three sample rounds from the official delivery sample at nationals.

 

Because if that average is 125 or greater the shooter's actual ammo passes.

 

You do have that data, don't you?

 

Do you have it? Or know where to find it? Would be interesting to see. Also would be interesting to know the barrel length the ammo was tested in

[BritinUSA]

I think both Phil and Max were shooting the match ammo, I need to confirm that;

 

The bullet weights are different, the listed weight for the Sig ammo is 147 so either the scales were running low or SIG is scrimping on the lead content a little.

 

There’s a significant difference in velocity, maybe Max is running a much lighter recoil and/or striker/hammer spring. Either could lead to a slightly faster unlock and lower velocities. The ammo lists velocity at 880fps which is close to Phil’s velocities. 
 

Ammo: https://www.sigsauer.com/9mm-147gr-match-elite-competition-jhp.html

 

[Miranda]

1 hour ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

The data I am asking you to provide is the average velocity of three sample rounds from the official delivery sample at nationals.

 

Because if that average is 125 or greater the shooter's actual ammo passes.

 

You do have that data, don't you?

 

k.  you clearly have a horse in this race.

why do you not state what is on your mind.

 

I have a report that the ammo did not make the cutoff.

if you want to dis credit it, you should do so.

 

I make a statement that is a proper response to that infraction.

 

I happen to know a light power round is easier to run at speed.

and there is a reason for the power floor. 

it is also called a clear competitive advantage when you do not meet that specification.

 

the appearance is attempting to get close to a fail edge

much like an under weight race car. 

we know why it happened. 

 

miranda

 

 

 

 

[BritinUSA]

If that is indeed the factory ammo they used, then it’s a little too close to 125PF in my opinion..

 

If the listed weight and velocity for this ammo is correct then 147 x 880 = 129.36

 

If the chrono/scales are off by just 3.4% then it’s sub-Minor….

 

I always aimed for 132PF to give me a little cushion.