Is 124.55 power factor minor?

[BritinUSA]

With the amount of money that is spent on equipment, training and match entry/travel, hovering this close to the edge simply makes no sense. 
 

The SIG ammo at the center of this only makes 129PF according to the specifications on the box.
 

Perhaps the official specs of the ammo should be 135PF before it’s accepted as match ammo, then it should comfortably make 125 out of just about any gun

[motosapiens]

Just now, BritinUSA said:

With the amount of money that is spent on equipment, training and match entry/travel, hovering this close to the edge simply makes no sense. 
 

The SIG ammo at the center of this only makes 129PF according to the specifications on the box.
 

Perhaps the official specs of the ammo should be 135PF before it’s accepted as match ammo, then it should comfortably make 125 out of just about any gun

it would be interesting and educational to see what that animal Chronos in a variety of different guns. We see 2-3 pf difference pretty frequently just between my match gun and back up gun or between my gun and my wife’s gun.

 

but whatever, I am willing to let companies do what they think is best for them under the current rules. Even if I was using certified ammo I would want to Chrono it myself and test it for accuracy in my gun before I went to a major match.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

10 hours ago, Miranda said:

I think since it is a floor, the rules for ammo with SKU should be within 10 points

of declared PF and declared PF has to be ten points over the 125 PF minimum.

 

I'd think a compromise of a declared 132 PF is in order...

mostly because britinUSA said it is his target.

I happen to agree with that.

 

miranda

 

 

The rules are the rules.  They don't care who likes them or not.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

39 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

With the amount of money that is spent on equipment, training and match entry/travel, hovering this close to the edge simply makes no sense.

 

Which is why it's incumbent on the user and not the manufacturer to make sure the ammo he uses will do the job.

 

 

39 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

 The SIG ammo at the center of this only makes 129PF according to the specifications on the box.  Perhaps the official specs of the ammo should be 135PF before it’s accepted as match ammo, then it should comfortably make 125 out of just about any gun

 

So you and a few others are ready to start changing rules based on a data set that doesn't even come close to being statistically signifcant.

 

Cool story

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Miranda]

1 hour ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

The rules are the rules.  They don't care who likes them or not.

this time I agree with what you have said.

I doubt you will think I meant that in my next few sentences

 

One. All 'rules' are made by us humans. 

They can and should be changed when they need changing.

We may not agree on needs, rules, or changes. 

 

Two. When the rules are made to clearly benefit a select person or group,

then we get into fewer people attempting to participate...

For a study in 'rules' as  applied to a select person or groups,

you may want to explore NASCAR over the years...

 

now, you have given me the decided impression

you have a lot of interest in leaving the rules alone. 

That is of note to me.

 

miranda

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 hours ago, Miranda said:

this time I agree with what you have said.

I doubt you will think I meant that in my next few sentences

 

One. All 'rules' are made by us humans. 

They can and should be changed when they need changing.

We may not agree on needs, rules, or changes. 

 

Two. When the rules are made to clearly benefit a select person or group,

then we get into fewer people attempting to participate...

For a study in 'rules' as  applied to a select person or groups,

you may want to explore NASCAR over the years...

 

now, you have given me the decided impression

you have a lot of interest in leaving the rules alone. 

That is of note to me.

 

miranda

 

 

In principle we agree.

 

I don't have any interest in changing rules based on whims, opinions, appearances, and without data to support a position.  Maybe you think I stand to gain from the ammo rules left unchanged, but I don't buy factory ammo so there's that.

 

So far as I know, there is no evidence of any cheating from any competitor or ammo manufacturer and no evidence that there is a widespread problem with certified ammunition from any manufacturer.  So I have no interest in making any changes to the certified ammunition rules YET.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[BritinUSA]

I don’t think there was any cheating going on. I do think USPSA makes poor choices sometimes. 
 

Not every competitor has an opportunity to chrono match ammo before a competition, (international shooters for example).

 

Imagine getting hosed when poppers don’t fall (through no fault of the competitor) because USPSA allowed match ammo so close to the limit that it shoots under 125 from some guns.

[RobW]

12 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

With the amount of money that is spent on equipment, training and match entry/travel, hovering this close to the edge simply makes no sense. 
 

The SIG ammo at the center of this only makes 129PF according to the specifications on the box.
 

Perhaps the official specs of the ammo should be 135PF before it’s accepted as match ammo, then it should comfortably make 125 out of just about any gun

We are talking about a Sig factory team shooter using Sig match certified ammo. What about this scenario makes no sense? 

[Darqusoull13]

12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

it’s worth noting that the guy who wins almost everything these days typically Chronos well above 130 (and also resets enthusiastically).

And genuinely will talk to anyone on the range, discuss stage plans openly and be happy when they recognize you 

[Miranda]

4 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

And genuinely will talk to anyone on the range, discuss stage plans openly and be happy when they recognize you 

am looking forward to meeting him

 

[Miranda]

9 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

In principle we agree.

 

quoted to let you know, I read  and am responding.

I think I see what you are saying. 

 

I see a need for the discussion... :--D

 

and nothing may come of it as we may find the rules are

self policing or not a competitive advantage.

 

miranda

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Miranda
forgot a sentence

[BritinUSA]

I think there is little competitive advantage to shooting 124 vs 125. But there is a potential disadvantage for any competitor using match ammo that flies too close to the edge.

 

Quote

Imagine getting hosed when poppers don’t fall (through no fault of the competitor) because USPSA allowed match ammo so close to the limit that it shoots under 125 from some guns.

 

The integrity of competition is important; To that end, should USPSA set a minimum power factor for match ammo to ensure that people don’t inadvertently end up going sub-Minor and getting hosed if/when poppers fail to fall?

 

Suggestion: If the manufacturers specifications fall below 135 then it should not be considered valid for this program.

 

This should help ensure that it makes 125 out any competitive handgun.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

The integrity of competition is important; To that end, should USPSA set a minimum power factor for match ammo to ensure that people don’t inadvertently end up going sub-Minor and getting hosed if/when poppers fail to fall?

 

Suggestion: If the manufacturers specifications fall below 135 then it should not be considered valid for this program.

 

Have you renewed your membership?

[IL-SIG]

Suggestion: If the manufacturers specifications fall below 135 then it should not be considered valid for this program.
 

 

So if a competitor decides to use Federal Syntech ammo and properly declare match ammo, and properly follow the rules including providing a sample and being checked via Chrono, they should have different criteria than someone who loads their own ammo down in the basement on their Dillon 750?  That is completely not reasonable. 
 

Now, if one thinks minor should have a floor of 135PF for all competitors, that could be a valid discussion. 
 

Also, one of the principles of our rule set is competitor equity. In short, all rules should apply equally to all competitors. Anyone who chooses to use match ammo is required to follow the exact same rules regardless of your name or sponsor.
 

If you don’t want to worry about Chrono on match day, use match ammo and follow the proper procedure. Otherwise quit trying to stir up a controversy where none exists. 

[BritinUSA]

Misdirection: The chrono is not the problem.

 

Read my post again, there is a potential problem that impacts the integrity of the competition.
 

Specifically; If the match ammo measures below 125 and fails to knock down a popper - that is calibrated to 125 - then the competitor is penalized for a problem over which they have no control.

 

There is no controversy here. 

[motosapiens]

38 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

 

 

Specifically; If the match ammo measures below 125 and fails to knock down a popper - that is calibrated to 125 - then the competitor is penalized for a problem over which they have no control.

 

you could not be more wrong. The competitor has total control over that situation. They have the option to Chrono their match ammo before they go to the match just like everyone else.

 

if you don’t want to have a clown show at a major match you should do your homework, just like everyone else does.

Edited September 21, 2022 by motosapiens

[BritinUSA]

If they pick up their ammo at the match then its too late to take corrective action if it measures low.

[IL-SIG]

Once again - the rules are your friend. According to C2, calibration ammo should be between 115 and 125 PF. Generally speaking, most RM’s will tend to be closer to the lower end of the range. Thus, steel is generally calibrated closer to 115 or below. Accordingly, a competitor with ammo slightly below the PF floor of 125 should have no issues with properly calibrated steel. 

[Miranda]

2 hours ago, IL-SIG said:

Suggestion: If the manufacturers specifications fall below 135 then it should not be considered valid for this program.
 

 

So if a competitor decides to use Federal Syntech ammo and properly declare match ammo, and properly follow the rules including providing a sample and being checked via Chrono, they should have different criteria than someone who loads their own ammo down in the basement on their Dillon 750?  That is completely not reasonable. 
 

 

snipped the additional parts cause I find a lot of merit there.

 

I am not sure how to point this out...

buying ammo vs self loaded ammo  does have different criteria

at a match.  The purchased ammo itself gets leeway to be under

minor PF. 

you may call it a blue unicorn, it is still gunna have different criteria.

  

the rules you have stated (not me...) look to me like

they may well have been decided with good reasons.

and we are trying to decide what merits are involved.

 

I still feel that a PF floor is a standard that need to be defined

and all must meet it.   If you think a lower PF ammo takes its chances

with a popper and no need to buzzkill over some odd related rule(s)

then I can live with that.  

that idea will quickly lead to consider applying

the new lower PF floor to home made ammo. 

 

that way everyone gets to declare a PF to the ammo and as long as it is

within ten points of that declared PF,  the scores stand.

 

that seems completely reasonable to me.

 

miranda 

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

On 9/20/2022 at 9:24 PM, IL-SIG said:

Once again - the rules are your friend. According to C2, calibration ammo should be between 115 and 125 PF. Generally speaking, most RM’s will tend to be closer to the lower end of the range. Thus, steel is generally calibrated closer to 115 or below. Accordingly, a competitor with ammo slightly below the PF floor of 125 should have no issues with properly calibrated steel. 

as long as the wind doesn't blow, and as long as they don't hit the steel low.

[Sinister4]

If we are shooting a match I want my ammo in my gun to be 130+, I load and test on 2 chronos so im sure it is legal.  Interesting to note on my testing of federal syntec and all the weights of eley ALL came in 130 or better in glock 34, 17 and sig320max  

 If the stuff I picked up at a match went sub minor id use something else 

[Racinready300ex]

Here's a thought.

 

Say you're shooting open major. You drill some holes in you're barrel and it shoots flatter. But, it shoots best with certified match ammo that doesn't make major due to the ports. 

 

Should this be allowed?

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

Another thought, if you run a gun with a shorter than average barrel. I won our sectional once with a 4" limited gun. The ammo I shot would of been close to 180 PF out of a full size gun. Shooting match ammo in that case could of made my gun a little easier to shoot with no risk of not making major. 

 

My current CO gun is only 3.75" barrel. Might be the same boat. Maybe if I go to Nat's next year I should just run match ammo to avoid any risk of going sub minor with my short barrel. 

 

I don't really see a problem with any of these scenario's.