I say DQ. MD says no

[SGT_Schultz]

Just now, 71Commander said:

I did above.

 

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets.

 

I'd tell the MD that the shooter let a round one handed go while running from box A to box B outside of a shooting area. Let the MD settle it or arb it.

 

You didn't answer anything.  You gave a possibly misleading description of the events based on your own stubborn bias.

 

It's a good thing I don't live in the same state so the chances of running into you as an RO are between slim and none.

[Robertwil18]

Rule knowledge is extremely important, but something that is more paramount to success as an RO, or an Official in any sport for that matter, is the proper and timely application of the rule.  This sport, like many others, moves quickly, and you often only get a fraction of a second to determine whether a shooter is acting within the rules or not.  

For this situation, in my opinion, a couple of simple questions can clear it up:

 

1)  Was the shooter engaging, or appearing to engage a target that was downrange of his position? 

2)  Was the shot intended and "controlled" by the shooter?

 

These two questions should be able to clear up the situation.  If the answer to both of those questions are YES, then you would asses procedural penalties for shots taken outside of the shooting area.  If the answer to both of those questions is NO, then you would assess a Match DQ for AD/ND.  It truly should be that simple.

 

The fact the individual was shooting outside the shooting area, and shooting with a single hand, is not enough by itself to declare it a DQ.  The discharge must be uncontrolled, accidental, or not completed while engaging a target or target array during the movement.  The proximity of the discharge is immaterial as a DQ can, and is often assessed within the shooting area.  The ACTION and perceived INTENT of the shooter (as judged by the RO) is what matters in this situation.  A shooter may engage singlehandedly while outside the shooting area an moving, there is no rule that prevents this. There is an applicable penalty for doing so.  

Are you able to more clearly define whether the shooter had the intent to discharge a round in the direction of a target while moving?  If you cannot clearly say that the shooter did not intend to discharge a round, then you should not declare it a DQ, but assess the procedural penalties.  

 

[RadarTech]

1 hour ago, 71Commander said:

In an area between shooting boxes?

Can you show me a rule that says between shooting boxes?

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

meh, this is fun to split hairs about on the internet, but in real life it's pretty easy to tell the difference between someone who is engaging targets and someone who is happily moving somewhere when his gun unexpectedly goes off. If he was engaging targets, then procedural. if he AD'd while moving, DQ.

[Sarge]

These threads are valuable as they always, ALWAYS, show just how little some guys know in regards to rules.

[Sarge]

56 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

You didn't answer anything.  You gave a possibly misleading description of the events based on your own stubborn bias.

 

It's a good thing I don't live in the same state so the chances of running into you as an RO are between slim and none.

Dude, I know we often shoot the same matches and are local to each other, but you have absolutely got to lighten up. You are way off base here.

  I have attended many matches with 71commander. I have RO’d him and he has RO’d me. He has always done a good job. I agree the situation is a little cloudy on this one and he is not making things 100% clear. If he made a bad call he will certainly learn from it. If he made the right call he should still learn something from this thread.

  

[71Commander]

57 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Dude, I know we often shoot the same matches and are local to each other, but you have absolutely got to lighten up. You are way off base here.

  I have attended many matches with 71commander. I have RO’d him and he has RO’d me. He has always done a good job. I agree the situation is a little cloudy on this one and he is not making things 100% clear. If he made a bad call he will certainly learn from it. If he made the right call he should still learn something from this thread.

  

Thanks Kevin.

 

There was no call made. It was pointed out in the RO walk through by the MD. It is how he said it is to be called.

 

Here's a little fact I didn't add. The start position was with a unloaded gun and you had to move from Box A to Box B before engaging.

[ima45dv8]

Jesus Christ, 71!

 

You're opening post clearly stated your observation as, "During movement shooter engages target from outside box A wile moving to box B".

You've weasled your way around that, with considerable assistance from other posters, but your words MEAN THINGS.

 

What was it? 

 

If he was ENGAGING target (as yas YOU said he was), it's a procedural. If he wasn't deliberately engaging the targets, it's a DQ.

WTF happened? YOU were there. We weren't. 

Enlighten us with the truth, or hush up about it.

[SGT_Schultz]

15 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

Jesus Christ, 71!

 

You're opening post clearly stated your observation as, "During movement shooter engages target from outside box A wile moving to box B".

You've weasled your way around that, with considerable assistance from other posters, but your words MEAN THINGS.

 

What was it? 

 

If he was ENGAGING target (as yas YOU said he was), it's a procedural. If he wasn't deliberately engaging the targets, it's a DQ.

WTF happened? YOU were there. We weren't. 

Enlighten us with the truth, or hush up about it.

 

+1

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, 71Commander said:

Here's a little fact I didn't add. The start position was with a unloaded gun and you had to move from Box A to Box B before engaging.

 

Irrelevant.  No DQ if shooter deliberately shot at the targets while moving to box B

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, 71Commander said:

Thanks Kevin.

 

There was no call made. It was pointed out in the RO walk through by the MD. It is how he said it is to be called.

 

Here's a little fact I didn't add. The start position was with a unloaded gun and you had to move from Box A to Box B before engaging.

In that case it sounds like the MD needs a refresher course 

[Bakerjd]

So I have a very recent one that fits this pretty well. Was at nats a few weeks ago. Normal long course, shoot em as you see em. Start in box. First target is about 3ft away. I drew gun and fired both shots at target before I even got second hand on the gun, turned and moved to next position and continued on. What would you call that @71Commander? All the RO staff were just fine with it. And I got 2A. 

 

As for your specific argument, even with the new added info it is still just a penalty. 

[Bakerjd]

5 hours ago, 71Commander said:

There was no call made. It was pointed out in the RO walk through by the MD. It is how he said it is to be called.

How can there be no call made? Either the rules say it's a DQ or they dont. Being the MD doesnt give you the right to DQ for no reason. Cant just say, "if shooter does this it's an automatic DQ". 

[BillChunn]

10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in accordance with Section 8.5

 

8.5 Movement

8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement (see Appendix A3) must be  accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction.

8.5.2 If a competitor holsters a loaded firearm or places a PCC or handgun on a stable surface at any time during a course of fire, it must be placed in the applicable ready conditions (see Section 8.1). Violations will be subject to match disqualification (see Rule 10.5.11).

8.5.2.1 For a single action self-loader the safety must be applied.

8.5.2.2 For double action self-loaders and revolvers the hammer must be down, or, if present, the safety applied if the hammer is cocked.

 

As mentioned, it's relatively simple.  If the RO determined that the competitor was attempting to engage the targets, procedural per shot fired. 

 

Now it gets to the finer points of this incident.  How many rounds were fired?  If they were actually attempting to engage the target, wouldn't two rounds be fired or did they stop after lighting off the first one and realized they were not in the specified shooting position?  Did the 2nd RO see where the bullet hit?  Was the competitor flat out running toward the box and not making any attempt to aim at the targets?  What did the competitor's body language indicate when they fired that shot?  Surprised?  Kept moving at the same speed?  Annoyed that they were going to get a procedural or possibly be DQ'ed?  Did the RO say STOP?  If so, when?  

 

All these questions should be able to be answered by the RO team that was running the shooter.  At the CRO's direction, he should have gathered them away from the competitor and the rest of the squad and asked each one what they saw.  If there was just a "tablet RO" and he says he didn't see it because of his position, then the decision is on the Timer RO who was watching the gun.

 

If the match director is setting specific disqualification scenarios during the shooter's meeting, as @Sarge stated - In that case it sounds like the MD needs a refresher course 

 

The bad news it that the above statement usually happens at one of the clubs around here.  During the shooters meeting, the announcement usually covers the targets that are set at the 179 1/2 degree positions.  Something along the lines of "this is a Level 5 match" and if you break the 180, you're responsible, not us.  

 

BC

[Sarge]

8 hours ago, Bakerjd said:

How can there be no call made? Either the rules say it's a DQ or they dont. Being the MD doesnt give you the right to DQ for no reason. Cant just say, "if shooter does this it's an automatic DQ". 

Pretty sure he is saying there was no call made because it was just an RO walk through by the MD.

 As far as the rest of your comment, bingo!

[pjb45]

20 hours ago, 71Commander said:

I've been a CRO for 15 years. If I see a shooter running between 2 shooting boxes outside of a shooting area let a round go one handed, I'm calling it.

What a BS attitude.  Seriously, are you just looking to DQ people.

SHO/WHO is allowed.

Shooting from the hip is allowed.

Point shooting  is allowed.

 

In the OK Nationals series there was a stage with a low port.  Several GMs just lowered their gun to the port and shot the targets with out a sight/eyes alignment.  

 

[Sarge]

21 hours ago, 71Commander said:

I've been a CRO for 15 years. If I see a shooter running between 2 shooting boxes outside of a shooting area let a round go one handed, I'm calling it.

That, again, will depend on exactly what happens.

[broadside72]

On 5/30/2021 at 4:48 PM, RadarTech said:

If it is in the rules, it does not have to be stated in the WSB.. 

check rule 10.2.1.

 

 

This goes against the RO training however. In my range portion, Troy handed out cards with different scenarios for the shooter to perform for us to try to catch and assess any penalties. One was "foot outside the shooting box". We wanted to call procedurals for that but he showed us the WSB again and it did not make any comment about "from within the shooting area", so no penalty was to be applied in that case. 

[RadarTech]

9 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

This goes against the RO training however. In my range portion, Troy handed out cards with different scenarios for the shooter to perform for us to try to catch and assess any penalties. One was "foot outside the shooting box". We wanted to call procedurals for that but he showed us the WSB again and it did not make any comment about "from within the shooting area", so no penalty was to be applied in that case. 

How long ago was that? 

[broadside72]

2 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

How long ago was that? 

 

correction, 2 years ago

Edited June 1, 2021 by broadside72

[RadarTech]

4 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

correction, 2 years ago

Yea.. the current guidance is if it is in the rule book it does not have to be in the WSB… 

[Alleycatdad]

On 6/1/2021 at 3:58 PM, broadside72 said:

 

correction, 2 years ago

This was also part of an RO training FEbruary 2021....

 

Just sayin.

 

SA

[Silver_Surfer]

I would say yes but only IF the targets were wide open from between the shooting boxes and obscured from the shooting boxes(Area).  Un-sportsmanship conduct?

Edited June 8, 2021 by Silver_Surfer

[Ted Murphy]

On 5/31/2021 at 4:20 PM, 71Commander said:

Only one hand on the gun.

Its a handgun not a “hands” gun. 
 

It might not be a good plan but you can shoot one handed. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Ted Murphy

[twodownzero]

I don't know why everyone keeps talking about what the shooter intended.  A DQ never depends on what the shooter intended.  If you're intending to shoot at targets but torch a round off uprange or within a few feet of yourself, you're still going home.  If your gun is up and aimed in the general direction of the target and you miss gloriously while shooting on the move, you're not subject to a DQ.  Neither are dependent on intent.  All that really matters is the RO's assessment of the situation.  Your intent never enters the decision unless it affects the RO's assessment of what happened.