I say DQ. MD says no

[71Commander]

Stage has two shooting boxes 30 feet apart. Shooter engages array from box A moves to box B and engages remaining targets. During movement shooter engages target from outside box A wile moving to box B. Not in any of the shooting boxes but half way between the two.

 

Procedural or DQ?

[N1BGR]

As long as the shooter intended to engage the target while moving from box A to box B, and it was not an accidental discharge of the firearm, then this would only be a procedural for engaging targets outside the shooting area. However, if the written stage brief did not mention engaging the targets from within the shooting area, then there would be no penalty at all. This would only be a DQ if the shooter did not mean for the gun to fire while they were moving.

[ima45dv8]

You said, "shooter engages target from outside box A wile [sic] moving to box B". That implies a deliberate action. Penalty, but not a DQ.

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, 71Commander said:

Stage has two shooting boxes 30 feet apart. Shooter engages array from box A moves to box B and engages remaining targets. During movement shooter engages target from outside box A wile moving to box B. Not in any of the shooting boxes but half way between the two.

 

Procedural or DQ?

 

Your title says "I say DQ...."

 

Rather than giving you the answer, I will ask you to support your stance with a rule citation.  You will learn more that way.

Edited May 30, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[Shootingaggie]

Procedural

[ima45dv8]

55 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Rather than giving you the answer, I will ask you to support your stance with a rule citation.  You will learn more that way.

Aahhhh...  That really is the correct response. 

Thanks for the reminder.

[RadarTech]

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Your title says "I say DQ...."

 

Rather than giving you the answer, I will ask you to support your stance with a rule citation.  You will learn more that way.

You beat me to it..

 

the first thing I ask ANYONE when they think it is a DQ is cite your rule.. 

 

if they can’t provide one, then how could it apply?

 

for procedurals— same applies.. what rule? 
 

this should be a learning tool for all…

 

[RadarTech]

2 hours ago, N1BGR said:

As long as the shooter intended to engage the target while moving from box A to box B, and it was not an accidental discharge of the firearm, then this would only be a procedural for engaging targets outside the shooting area. However, if the written stage brief did not mention engaging the targets from within the shooting area, then there would be no penalty at all. This would only be a DQ if the shooter did not mean for the gun to fire while they were moving.

If it is in the rules, it does not have to be stated in the WSB.. 

check rule 10.2.1.

 

[SGT_Schultz]

13 hours ago, RadarTech said:

If it is in the rules, it does not have to be stated in the WSB.. 

check rule 10.2.1.

 

 

Yep, this is not IDPA

[71Commander]

18 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Your title says "I say DQ...."

 

Rather than giving you the answer, I will ask you to support your stance with a rule citation.  You will learn more that way.

I think the MD is using this as a reason for no DQ:

 

10.2.1.2 A shooter who fires shots while completely outside (both feet out and touching the ground) after leaving a shooting area is deemed to have gained a significant advantage and will be given one penalty for each shot fired until presence is re-established.

 

I view it as as AD, finger in trigger guard wile running.

 

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets.

[JohnStewart]

19 minutes ago, 71Commander said:

I think the MD is using this as a reason for no DQ:

 

10.2.1.2 A shooter who fires shots while completely outside (both feet out and touching the ground) after leaving a shooting area is deemed to have gained a significant advantage and will be given one penalty for each shot fired until presence is re-established.

 

I view it as as AD, finger in trigger guard wile running.

 

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets.

So, it comes down the RO's opinion, was the shooter shooting at targets when between the shooting areas?  If so, then 10.2.1.2 applies for Procedural(s). If not 10.4.6 applies for a DQ.

[SGT_Schultz]

31 minutes ago, 71Commander said:

I think the MD is using this as a reason for no DQ:

 

10.2.1.2 A shooter who fires shots while completely outside (both feet out and touching the ground) after leaving a shooting area is deemed to have gained a significant advantage and will be given one penalty for each shot fired until presence is re-established.

 

I view it as as AD, finger in trigger guard wile running.

 

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets.

 

I bolded the key section of 10.4.6 for your benefit.  What did you observe that led you to believe that the shooter was not shooting at the targets when he was firing his gun on the way to the next shooting position?

[Mcfoto]

12 minutes ago, JohnStewart said:

So, it comes down the RO's opinion, was the shooter shooting at targets when between the shooting areas?  If so, then 10.2.1.2 applies for Procedural(s). If not 10.4.6 applies for a DQ.

Yes. Sometimes an RO needs to make a judgment regarding the shooters intent. If the shooter was maintaining sight picture and the shots were hitting in the vicinity of the targets, then Procedurals. If the shooter was looking away from the gun or in the process of a reload or the hits were no where near the targets-particularly if over the berm, DQ.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Mcfoto said:

Yes. Sometimes an RO needs to make a judgment regarding the shooters intent. If the shooter was maintaining sight picture and the shots were hitting in the vicinity of the targets, then Procedurals. If the shooter was looking away from the gun or in the process of a reload or the hits were no where near the targets-particularly if over the berm, DQ.

I see what you are getting at but it’s not that simple. A sight picture is not a requirement. A shot does not have to hit anywhere near a target. Looking away while shooting at a target is also fine. 
 Judging a shooters intent is much harder than judging his actions. A good RO watches what happens and makes a call based on what he saw, not what he thought.

[motosapiens]

meh, this is fun to split hairs about on the internet, but in real life it's pretty easy to tell the difference between someone who is engaging targets and someone who is happily moving somewhere when his gun unexpectedly goes off. If he was engaging targets, then procedural. if he AD'd while moving, DQ.

[RadarTech]

Read this and consider AD VERSUS AIMING

 

https://nroi.org/?s=Aiming

[71Commander]

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I bolded the key section of 10.4.6 for your benefit.  What did you observe that led you to believe that the shooter was not shooting at the targets when he was firing his gun on the way to the next shooting position?

Only one hand on the gun.

[Nathanb]

12 minutes ago, 71Commander said:

Only one hand on the gun.

This still doesn’t mean it wasn’t intended 

[RadarTech]

17 minutes ago, 71Commander said:

Only one hand on the gun.

So in the event I saw a couple years ago in your statement should be a DQ.. 

 

open shooter with a slide racker— gun went to “single action” mode due to a some issue I forget…

 

he was shooting strong hand and using the weak hand to rack it.. 

 

should that be a DQ? Nope.. he was actively engaging targets.. 

[71Commander]

8 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

So in the event I saw a couple years ago in your statement should be a DQ.. 

 

open shooter with a slide racker— gun went to “single action” mode due to a some issue I forget…

 

he was shooting strong hand and using the weak hand to rack it.. 

 

should that be a DQ? Nope.. he was actively engaging targets.. 

In an area between shooting boxes?

[SGT_Schultz]

58 minutes ago, 71Commander said:

Only one hand on the gun.

 

It's quite possible to engage targets SHO or WHO on the run.  He just has to sorta aim at them and fire.  Hitting them is irrelevant.  The shooter also gets wide latitude on what is considered "engaging".  He can hip shoot them on the run, miss them all, and it's still not a DQ

 

About the only way that I would call a DQ on this particular instance is if I saw the shooter looking at where he's going, not looking at the targets, gun is definitely not pointed in the direction of the targets, and a shot goes off.

 

In fact, the location within or outside the bounds of the shooting area is completely irrelevant.

 

So unless you are absolutely, positively, without a single shred of doubt sure that he did not INTEND to shoot at the targets; you have no grounds to issue a DQ.

Edited May 31, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[SGT_Schultz]

26 minutes ago, 71Commander said:

In an area between shooting boxes?

 

Yes.  Doing so with both feet outside of the bounds of the shooting areas is one procedural per shot.  Not a DQ.

 

You have to have a rule that you can specifically cite to issue a DQ.

 

You should know this if you're a certified RO.

[71Commander]

1 minute ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

It's quite possible to engage targets SHO or WHO on the run.  He just has to sorta aim at them and fire.  Hitting them is irrelevant.  The shooter also gets wide latitude on what is considered "engaging".  He can hip shoot them on the run, miss them all, and it's still not a DQ

 

About the only way that I would call a DQ on this particular instance is if I saw the shooter looking at where he's going, not looking at the targets, gun is definitely not pointed in the direction of the targets, and a shot goes off.

 

So unless you are absolutely, positively, without a single shred of doubt sure that he did not INTEND to shoot at the targets; you have no grounds to issue a DQ.

I've been a CRO for 15 years. If I see a shooter running between 2 shooting boxes outside of a shooting area let a round go one handed, I'm calling it.

[SGT_Schultz]

2 minutes ago, 71Commander said:

I've been a CRO for 15 years. If I see a shooter running between 2 shooting boxes outside of a shooting area let a round go one handed, I'm calling it.

 

You still haven't answered the question about whether the shooter was engaging the targets or not.  Years of "experience" don't impress me if you can't articulate what you saw specifically enough to support your call with a rule citation.

 

I'm done with this

Edited May 31, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[71Commander]

2 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

You still haven't answered the question about whether the shooter was engaging the targets or not.  Years of "experience" don't impress me if you can't articulate what you saw specifically enough to be supported by a rule citation.

I did above.

 

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets.

 

I'd tell the MD that the shooter let a round one handed go while running from box A to box B outside of a shooting area. Let the MD settle it or arb it.