I wish Production wasn't dying

[waktasz]

Shoot a match in New York. 

[rowdyb]

26 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Shoot a match in New York. 

Or Hawaii or Canada. And others...

[cbrussell]

Stood point; I hope that does not come to all the states. Dumb law no matter how you cut it.

[IHAVEGAS]

13 hours ago, cbrussell said:

Stood point; I hope that does not come to all the states. Dumb law no matter how you cut it.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/magazine-capacity-laws-by-state

 

[Sinister4]

16 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/magazine-capacity-laws-by-state

 

good list of states never to bother shooting in..............

[ramairthree]

I more lament the changes to the stages and shots in the stages than what percentage of shooters use which gun.

 

The few matches I have been to after a break have stages that completely suck for a guy shooting irons vs optics.  
 

With purposely confusing, trip you up, Easter egg hunt for targets, etc. 
 

I had a long break.

I’m not sure how much is evolution over 9 years,

or how much is the past two years have been hardcore match goers only shifting things to how they like them without the entry level and noob contingent.
 

 

[waktasz]

That has more to do with your particular region and MD than the rules or divisions, obviously. 

Then again...most matches are absolute hosefests so if you are complaining because stages are complicated or shots are difficult, you're the problem. 

[ramairthree]

I’m not really the problem.

 

the problem is I used to be able to bring new shooters to a match, get them interested, and some would join.

 

on most of the stages, they could watch the experienced shooters.

now, a majority of the stages are too complicated and too many obstacles/barriers for them to watch.

 

sure, they might get a miss or a bad hit on a silhouette at 30 yards.  But they were not wasting ammo on small square steels at 30 yards.

 

‘they might miss the swinger, but the swinger was not surrounded by no shoots.

 

and the average static target between no shoots was not the slivers of good hit they are now.

 

they might take a few shots on the popper, but the popper was not backed by no shoots.

 

they did not have to hunt and peck purposefully difficult to find/easy to pass targets.

 

I didn’t used to go to matches and see as many falls from so much backwards movement and so many ROs struggling to get out of the way on so many stages with odd, non realistic direction changes.

 

Pretty much every stage I rember from a decade ago had a mandatory magazine change.  I have gone to a match where every non classifier stage was a 23 round minimum.  ensuring no mag changes for open, clean CCO, etc.  But guaranteeing everyone else one.

 

It’s basically saying F everyone not shooting Open, or not shooting CCO with an extra 100 bucks in special springs, followers, and baseplates per magazine.  Or bring a carbine.

 

every match needs a couple of bear stages oriented to A and up shooters, and another stage or two with a tough shot.

 

but if every single stage at a local match is oriented to complex layout, full of tough shoots, full of ammo black holes, etc.

your going to lose the casual shooters showing up with a production gun or an MOS with a holosun and some stock mags having fun and becoming regular shooters.  
 

it’s kind of an odd time because we are in the middle of a strange period where only hardcore shooters are showing up to shoot expensive, hard to find ammo, etc. and way less casual shooters and not a lot of new people deciding to buy/waste ammo right now.

 

[motosapiens]

24 minutes ago, ramairthree said:

I’m not really the problem.

 

the problem is I used to be able to bring new shooters to a match, get them interested, and some would join.

 

on most of the stages, they could watch the experienced shooters.

now, a majority of the stages are too complicated and too many obstacles/barriers for them to watch.

 

sure, they might get a miss or a bad hit on a silhouette at 30 yards.  But they were not wasting ammo on small square steels at 30 yards.

 

‘they might miss the swinger, but the swinger was not surrounded by no shoots.

 

and the average static target between no shoots was not the slivers of good hit they are now.

 

they might take a few shots on the popper, but the popper was not backed by no shoots.

 

they did not have to hunt and peck purposefully difficult to find/easy to pass targets.

 

I didn’t used to go to matches and see as many falls from so much backwards movement and so many ROs struggling to get out of the way on so many stages with odd, non realistic direction changes.

 

Pretty much every stage I rember from a decade ago had a mandatory magazine change.  I have gone to a match where every non classifier stage was a 23 round minimum.  ensuring no mag changes for open, clean CCO, etc.  But guaranteeing everyone else one.

<snip>

thanks for adding some more specific information. The issues you describe sound like a problem with local stupidity at your local matches. I have not experienced stages like these locally where I live (idaho), or at the matches I traveled to in the last couple years (oregon state, utah state, idaho section, Area 1, Lo-Cap national, Race gun Nationals, Bighorn, etc....). I tend to agree that ridiculous targets need to be used sparingly, if at all, and people who put no-shoots behind poppers deserve a kick in the balls.

 

I don't really care about reloads tho. I know we are running more 15-25 round stages now than we used to because of the ammo/primer shortages, and it doesn't hurt my feelings if I have to reload while the fat lazy open shooter who doesn't practice doesn't have to reload. I practice reloads, and I have to do them in major matches, so I hope to see lots of them at locals (and I'm shooting SS anyway, lol).

 

I also don't mind retreat stages. They are part of the sport. We try to coach noobs so they don't do anything dumb.

 

It's also worth noting that our matches have been almost overrun with newer shooters in the last 6-12 months. Not sure what conclusions to draw from that, but our stages usually don't suck.

Edited January 6, 2022 by motosapiens

[BritinUSA]

Stage Design is a regional/match thing. Some clubs have great designers who don't just rely on the 32-round, 8-shot arrays.

 

Other areas are not so fortunate.

 

When I used to shoot in UK from 1989-1997, matches were judged not on round-count but on the number of stages. Most stages had a far fewer rounds, I think even then we used the 3-2-1 ratio for our IPSC matches (3 x short, 2 x medium, 1 x long). The maximum number of rounds for a stage was 28, it got bumped to 32 when people started figuring out how to jam 31 rounds into the magazines.

 

If all your local clubs have mostly field courses then I think eventually it will drive some people into the higher-capacity divisions, as they get tired of just shoot-move-reload on every stage. The more people shoot higher-capacity, the more the matches will cater to that. So it's a vicious circle in many respects.

 

I've always thought that the short/medium courses test the competitors more than the large courses as there is less margin for error. In USPSA our short courses are mostly classifiers and many off those use a single box for a shooting position. IPSC has short courses with as much movement as a medium/large course…. it makes things very interesting.

 

I realize that very few people in USPSA have ever shot an IPSC match, I spent nine years shooting IPSC stages and 22 years shooting USPSA style stages….. I think on the whole that IPSC has much better concept of good stage design than USPSA.

 

But I am likely a minority of one in that regard.

 

 

[ramairthree]

I find it interesting you are seeing a lot of new shooters.

 

The new shooters I am seeing have some ammo support for LE or .mil.

great guys entering the sport to get better.

 

ot the new wife or girlfriend of a hardcore shooter.

 

‘my experience is virtually no - only 4 matches in the past few months-

is that the costs/decreased availability of cheap ammo and lack of reloading components is raising the bar of entry.

[JohnnyW]

Wow, after reading all this bitching, complaining, and general disrespect of others opinions and views, it's not hard to see why new shooters aren't coming to the sport and wanting to compete.  We have enough enemies outside the shooting sports wanting to regulate everything we do, we shouldn't have to deal with people who can't see that in fighting will only weaken us as a whole.  I went to the Nashville GS shortly after moving to Tennessee where I asked the RSO if they ran IDPA, he laughed and said " Hey Charlie, he asked if we do IDPA, we only do USPSA" I was like "seriously? F you and your elitist attitude". Never been back.

Edited January 15, 2022 by JohnnyW
Mispelling

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, JohnnyW said:

I went to the Nashville GS shortly after moving to Tennessee where I asked the RSO if they ran IDPA, he laughed and said " Hey Charlie, he asked if we do IDPA, we only do USPSA" I was like "seriously? F you and your elitist attitude". Never been back.

Id like to buy that guy a beer! Sounds like you are a bit thin skinned.

[mchapman]

18 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Id like to buy that guy a beer! Sounds like you are a bit thin skinned.

[Brooke]

No rational reason that every division should be the same.. If there is I suggest we go two divisions, Open and Limited. One for dots and one for irons. Thats a sure fire way to find out what guns people really want.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Brooke

[BritinUSA]

I think there should be four main divisions, two for iron-sight, two for optics, two that allow almost unlimited customization and two that allow only minor changes…

 

We had almost had that, but it got messed up thanks to ‘grow the sport’. The same flawed ideal that has led to some matches filing up in minutes and competitors being unable to shoot.

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

We had almost had that, but it got messed up thanks to ‘grow the sport’. The same flawed ideal that has led to some matches filing up in minutes and competitors being unable to shoot.

 

Yeah, because if matches are popular and people *want* to shoot them, that obviously means we are doing something terribly wrong.

[BritinUSA]

I’m sure you think you are being sarcastic/funny but you’ve actually posted something accurate. The long term implications for over-saturated matches is going to come back and bite this organization hard this year.
 

When the component shortage comes to an end you will see a lot of very angry people who are getting turned away from local matches due to lack of space. USPSA wanted to grow their revenue and this they have done, but this sport cannot grow beyond the venues that are available.

 

There are a finite number of ranges, not all of them want to run USPSA events, not all of them have the facilities, what is left is your limit.
 

Each club can accommodate a certain number of shooters, imagine a 120 mile radius around a club. If there are 100 shooters in that area and the club can accommodate 100 shooters then everyone is happy.

 

If USPSA adds 50 new shooters in that 120 mile radius then you have a 1 in 3 chance that you won’t get to shoot.

 

Understand ?

 

Now imagine that…, all over the country.

 

Imagine competitors dry-firing all week, loading ammo, watching training videos or attending in person training, only to get to the weekend and find their match is full within 2 minutes.

 

Learn to think.

 

 

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

 

There are a finite number of ranges, not all of them want to run USPSA events, not all of them have the facilities, what is left is your limit.
 

Each club can accommodate a certain number of shooters, imagine a 120 mile radius around a club. If there are 100 shooters in that area and the club can accommodate 100 shooters then everyone is happy.

 

If USPSA adds 50 new shooters in that 120 mile radius then you have a 1 in 3 chance that you won’t get to shoot.

 

<snip>

Learn to think.

 

 

 

i appreciate your thoughts on this matter, but unlike you, i don’t expect someone else to solve my problem. i was concerned about it , so i ran for and was elected to a BOD position at my local range and i’m actively involved in increasing our shooting opportunities. many other people in my area have taken similar steps. 

 

if we get 50 new shooters and start running short on room, we’ll add another monthly match, or two... we’ll shoot morning and afternoon flights. we’ll do what it takes because ultimately we the people are the ones responsible for getting sh!t done.

[Sarge]

9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

i appreciate your thoughts on this matter, but unlike you, i don’t expect someone else to solve my problem. i was concerned about it , so i ran for and was elected to a BOD position at my local range and i’m actively involved in increasing our shooting opportunities. many other people in my area have taken similar steps. 

 

if we get 50 new shooters and start running short on room, we’ll add another monthly match, or two... we’ll shoot morning and afternoon flights. we’ll do what it takes because ultimately we the people are the ones responsible for getting sh!t done.

I agree with Britin on this. Not everybody or club has the options you mention. That works for you but would never work around here. The three clubs near me are general member clubs so we can’t just say we are going to add matches to the calendar. Or extend match day for that reason. Sometimes there are members waiting to shoot while we tear down.

[motosapiens]

37 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I agree with Britin on this. Not everybody or club has the options you mention. That works for you but would never work around here. The three clubs near me are general member clubs so we can’t just say we are going to add matches to the calendar. Or extend match day for that reason. Sometimes there are members waiting to shoot while we tear down.

 

We are a general member club too. We expanded and built several new pistol pits, without waiting for a national organization to come save us. Now we can hold a USPSA match and still leave 6-7 large bays open for other members (as well as the 100-yd and 550-yd rifle lines).

 

We have the options I mention because individuals, boards and clubs worked hard over many years to create those options. The org (and the government) are never going to solve your problems for you.

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

We are a general member club too. We expanded and built several new pistol pits, without waiting for a national organization to come save us. Now we can hold a USPSA match and still leave 6-7 large bays open for other members (as well as the 100-yd and 550-yd rifle lines).

 

We have the options I mention because individuals, boards and clubs worked hard over many years to create those options. The org (and the government) are never going to solve your problems for you.

No doubt the org will ever SOLVE any of our problems but they sure do CREATE quite a few.

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

No doubt the org will ever SOLVE any of our problems but they sure do CREATE quite a few.

i haven't experienced them creating problems for me, but I'm working 3 nationals this year, so maybe I am *part* of the problem. I'm pretty happy with the way things are going (but I'll also be happy with some rules stability for a bit, now that I like them, lol).

[Thomas H]

On 1/16/2022 at 6:07 PM, BritinUSA said:

I’m sure you think you are being sarcastic/funny but you’ve actually posted something accurate. The long term implications for over-saturated matches is going to come back and bite this organization hard this year.
 

When the component shortage comes to an end you will see a lot of very angry people who are getting turned away from local matches due to lack of space. USPSA wanted to grow their revenue and this they have done, but this sport cannot grow beyond the venues that are available.

 

There are a finite number of ranges, not all of them want to run USPSA events, not all of them have the facilities, what is left is your limit.
 

Each club can accommodate a certain number of shooters, imagine a 120 mile radius around a club. If there are 100 shooters in that area and the club can accommodate 100 shooters then everyone is happy.

 

If USPSA adds 50 new shooters in that 120 mile radius then you have a 1 in 3 chance that you won’t get to shoot.

 

Understand ?

 

Now imagine that…, all over the country.

 

Imagine competitors dry-firing all week, loading ammo, watching training videos or attending in person training, only to get to the weekend and find their match is full within 2 minutes.

 

Learn to think.

 

 

 

So your solution is "let's not add new members"?

That seems to be completely fixing the wrong problem.

 

(Not to mention, in the situation you are discussing, it is a self-fixing problem, literally.)

 

For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone's solution to "we are filling matches incredibly quickly" would include the words "we have too many new shooters wanting to come to matches."

 

"Learn to think."

Hm. 

 

[BritinUSA]

Yes, if people who have spent thousand of dollars and hundreds of hours in training cannot get into their local matches because of increased demand, then there are too many new shooters.