waktasz Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 You're not changing the most popular division so stop that line of thinking right now. CO is never going back to 10 round mags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 3 minutes ago, waktasz said: You're not changing the most popular division so stop that line of thinking right now. CO is never going back to 10 round mags Who put you in charge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 19 minutes ago, varminter22 said: I don't understand the logic of making it (virtually) "Production Open" Div. I don’t either, we no longer have any ‘out of the box’ divisions. How it can be called ‘Production’ is just beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 11 minutes ago, BritinUSA said: Who put you in charge? It would seem the people have spoken. I'm just reporting on the obvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 1 hour ago, motosapiens said: that’s the best way to turn it into a race only division that has no connection to what people actually carry. Yeah, cause people are using what they carry now...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 34 minutes ago, varminter22 said: I've read, with great interest, this entire thread and must say I totally agree with those that believe it should be Production with Optics (and 10 rd mags). I don't understand the logic of making it (virtually) "Production Open" Div. That puts you in the vast minority lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 42 minutes ago, varminter22 said: I don't understand the logic of making it (virtually) "Production Open" Div. I don’t understand limiting CO to 10 rounds. Production and L10 are already 10 round capacity divisions. Besides the only reason CO is as popular as it is now is due to the current magazine rule. How many semi auto guns come with 10 round mags unless you live in a communist state? Rules should evolve with technology. Not limit new divisions to mag capacities of 20 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 14 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: Besides the only reason CO is as popular as it is now is due to the current magazine rule. Without a ‘control group’ for comparison, your statement is unprovable. Now if IPSC were to issue a graph showing the growth of their Production Optics divisions then we would have some data for comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 9 hours ago, BritinUSA said: Serious question for those that enjoy Production; Do you think that the rule changes concerning allowable modifications have made the division better or worse? The rule changes have made production a joke, Just like NASCAR;s stock cars. Call it what it is A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want with an irrational fear of external single actions, yet internal ones are AOK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 21 hours ago, PatJones said: There's an awful lot of butthurt lately towards the people at the top of the sport. Where is this coming from? Largely imagination I think, I've never seen any disdain aimed at the folks who are pulling their weight regardless of whether they are shooting only for fun and fellowship or whether they are taking things more seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinister4 Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Just let CO use 171mm mags and add comps and fold it into open, might as well just get it over with....................LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, BritinUSA said: Without a ‘control group’ for comparison, your statement is unprovable. Comical. You can track it by how CO exploded when the magazine change went into effect. So much so, it dominates all other classes by a considerable margin. Do you think that is the case if the mag capacity was 10 rounds? While I agree there would be a fair share of participants in CO regardless of magazine capacity rules, I do not think it would so heavily dominate the participation numbers as it does. Regardless, why restrict a division's mag capacity, for a new division using mostly guns designed to shoot in that division and commonly are guns that come with a mag capacity of at least 20 rounds? 36 minutes ago, Sinister4 said: Just let CO use 171mm mags and add comps and fold it into open, might as well just get it over with....................LOL I would be cool with the Magwells. Or be able to shoot the gun as you buy it. It seems like so many manufacturers are building them with Magwells and we have to remove them to play in that division. Again why are we standing in the way of how the gun is sold? IDPA allows them, but somehow that is over the top for USPSA. Edited January 24, 2022 by Boomstick303 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 47 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: It seems like so many manufacturers are building them with Magwells and we have to remove them to play in that division. How many guns come with magwells now? I know the Sig does, what are the rest of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 9 hours ago, BritinUSA said: Without a ‘control group’ for comparison, your statement is unprovable. Now if IPSC were to issue a graph showing the growth of their Production Optics divisions then we would have some data for comparison. We could look at match registrations and see that hi-cap divisions clearly have a lot more participation than low cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: I know the Sig does, what are the rest of them? I stand corrected. I thought the Walthers came with them, as well as a couple of others. That is not the case, and I have a bias in that I pretty have only purchased Sig P320s in various configurations, where they all come with Magwells now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 13 hours ago, BritinUSA said: I used to live in Colorado, that has a 15 round limit. Not really. With "grandfathered" magazines, high cap mags are widely available. The Weld County match in December had 35 shooters. 4 shot low cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 14 hours ago, BritinUSA said: I used to live in Colorado, that has a 15 round limit. No one cares here. Never have. LGS can dis-assemble high capacity mags and call them "Mag repair kits" and sell them just as any other magazine. Very few people shoot low cap divisions here. There is zero enforcement unless you use a high capacity mag in the commission of another crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said: I stand corrected. I thought the Walthers came with them, as well as a couple of others. That is not the case, and I have a bias in that I pretty have only purchased Sig P320s in various configurations, where they all come with Magwells now. I know no one cares about xdms anymore, but the elite models come with a MAG well. I had to take mine off to be carry-ops legal. I would be fine with allowing mag wells in carry-ups Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 If we were to change the rules to allow magwells, I'd bet we'll see way more aftermarket magwells than we do people just leaving the factory magwell on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 If you allow them, you require them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 CO shooter: "We should allow magwells in CO since my gun comes with a magwell." BOD: "Magwells are now allowed in CO." CO shooter: "Who makes the biggest brass magwell to replace my factory magwell?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 50 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: If we were to change the rules to allow magwells, I'd bet we'll see way more aftermarket magwells than we do people just leaving the factory magwell on. I do not disagree with this. But who cares at the end of the day. Does anyone leave their guns alone in this game? 15 minutes ago, Southpaw said: CO shooter: "Who makes the biggest brass magwell to replace my factory magwell?" I do not think so for those who have heavy guns already. Besides who cares if they do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said: I do not disagree with this. But who cares at the end of the day. Does anyone leave their guns alone in this game? I do not think so for those who have heavy guns already. Besides who cares if they do? I think we have to draw a line somewhere or all the divisions slowly turn into open. At this point I don't really care where the line is. I'd just like to see us find one and stick to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 20 hours ago, BritinUSA said: Serious question for those that enjoy Production; Do you think that the rule changes concerning allowable modifications have made the division better or worse? I don’t think any of the Production equipment rule changes in the last 3 years had anything to do with the decline of Production. Flashlights, holster/mags in front of hipbone, externally aftermarket parts, weight limit would have had the opposite effect of making it less restrictive and be more inclusive. I’ve never bought into the box-stock concept. People like to tinker, gun people especially. But why should that matter since this forum has long since said it is the Indian not the arrow… The notion that Prod is a division that uses ‘box-stock’ to level the playing field is outdated. That vision of Prod is frozen in circa early-2000. Fast forward 20 years and we have companies manufacturing pistols with features not present on other box-stock factory models. So in order to not invalidate somebody’s _____ gun from even 10 years ago, allowing them to install externally visible after-market parts or other customization is what LEVELS the playing field and not making it so that you had to buy the latest gun-fad on the market. Feel like the all-steel CZ and Tangfo’s have an inherent advantage because of their weight? Fine, install a tungsten backstrap or plug in your plastic gun and rock on without worry about manufacturer’s weight plus 4 oz. What I think hurts Prod is the 10-rnd limit. People like 9mm, especially now since ammo is hard to come by. They also like higher capacity for various reasons. New shooters don’t usually have 5-6 mags, hence they start in winder-likker division. I overheard a long-time Prod shooter say last weekend, “I got tired of all the reloads” to explain why he was shooting his Prod gun in Limited-minor. I think mirroring IPSC’s 15 rd limit would change that and make Prod a more unique division. CO exploded when they raised the mag limit to 140mm. Personally I would have been happy with ‘mag capacity’ but 140mm is much easier to regulate and level the playing field. And we already had rules and mag gauges in place for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 9 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: I think we have to draw a line somewhere or all the divisions slowly turn into open. At this point I don't really care where the line is. I'd just like to see us find one and stick to it. I can see that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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