I wish Production wasn't dying

[twodownzero]

1 hour ago, BiknSwans said:

 

Not the way I read the rules.  Weight requirement is still on the books, and aftermarket barrels do not have to be the same caliber as the original firearm.

 

 

Appendix D4 - Production Division

 

D4.18 Maximum weight

   Yes. 59 ounces with empty magazine inserted. 

 

D4.21.3 Aftermarket slides and barrels

   SLIDES: You may replace the slide with an OFM or aftermarket slide.

   
BARRELS: You may replace the barrel with an OFM or aftermarket barrel. 

 

I stand corrected--the rule was changed in July last year.

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

I stand corrected--the rule was changed in July last year.

 

Yeah, there really isn't much you can't do at this point. 

[twodownzero]

4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Yeah, there really isn't much you can't do at this point. 

While we're making it limited minor, can I just shoot my 2011 in Production then?  And since we're making it like IPSC, can I use my Ghost holster, too?  Where does it end?

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

While we're making it limited minor, can I just shoot my 2011 in Production then?  And since we're making it like IPSC, can I use my Ghost holster, too?  Where does it end?

 

Really at this point I don't think it would matter.

[broadside72]

19 hours ago, twodownzero said:

 

Doesn't have to  make weight anymore with the light.  And frame on the list isn't enough--a Glock 22 with a 9mm barrel is still not Production legal.  You must think what Production is.....is what it used to be before the rule changes.

59oz max weight with empty mag (and all other allowed modifications, including the light)

And the Gen 4 Glock 22 is on the list with no caliber caveat. 

[Racinready300ex]

18 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

What is the benefit of having all of those rules and requiring all of that policing?  To maintain the illusion that shooting a stock Glock vs a Stock M&P has some value?

 

It's really wasn't all that complicated. 

 

As it is there is nothing production about production or CO so I don't care what they do with them. Go ahead and make it "A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want" and open minor already. If people want another place to shoot $10k custom 2011's let them.

[Jeff226]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

It's really wasn't all that complicated. 

 

As it is there is nothing production about production or CO so I don't care what they do with them. Go ahead and make it "A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want" and open minor already. If people want another place to shoot $10k custom 2011's let them.

I'd like to meet a person that got suckered into paying their own money for a 10k custom 2011.  Not any demand for that around here.  Seems most just want magwells and 140mm magazines.

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

I'd like to meet a person that got suckered into paying their own money for a 10k custom 2011.  Not any demand for that around here.  Seems most just want magwells and 140mm magazines.

 

Talk to someone with a nice new infinity open gun. The sky is the limit. 

 

More basic limited guns from less fancy shops are only like 4-7k so that's better at least. 

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

I'd like to meet a person that got suckered into paying their own money for a 10k custom 2011.  Not any demand for that around here.  Seems most just want magwells and 140mm magazines.

i know at least 3-4 people that have bought custom infinitys in the last year. Perhaps people in my state work harder tho, and have more free income.

[SGT_Schultz]

16 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

Seems most just want magwells and 140mm magazines.

No, just you.

 

Limited awaits.......

[ltdmstr]

On 10/8/2021 at 6:39 AM, SGT_Schultz said:

Limited awaits.......

 

You will be assimilated.  Resistance is futile.

[SGT_Schultz]

3 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

You will be assimilated.  Resistance is futile.

 

LOL, CO for life baby

[pete627]

Wait .. wait!! Stop it!! I just bought 2 more 10 round magazines for the Canik!! 

[Agent #1911]

Here's an idea to save Production.

 

Make Prod and CO capacity 15 rounds. And change the name to Prod Optic. There is nothing “carry” about that division. USPSA made a mistake when they went full retard with 140mm mag. 

[BritinUSA]

I think a lot of the divisions are being bled by 'Carry Optics'. The four main divisions each had their pros and cons. The competitor then chose the one that interested them or was the closest to their equipment, or even the least objectionable. Essentially, there was no ideal division.

 

By allowing virtually all modifications and increasing magazine capacity they made it closer to Limited/Open divisions, so it bled people from those divisions as well as those that wanted to shoot Minor but wanted to have higher capacity.

 

They basically turned CO into 'One Ring to Rule them All'. In my opinion they ruined it its the main reason why I quit the sport.

 

I preferred the original intent, ie. Production Optics with the same ruleset as Production but with a dot. So if Prod/Optics went to 15 then so would Production. There would be no need to go to higher capacity as it would impact the other divisions.

 

I think the balance of the four main divisions was up-ended by the changes to CO… Its too late now, they will never hit the reset button. 

 

 

 

[vluc]

59 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

I think a lot of the divisions are being bled by 'Carry Optics'. The four main divisions each had their pros and cons. The competitor then chose the one that interested them or was the closest to their equipment, or even the least objectionable. Essentially, there was no ideal division.

 

By allowing virtually all modifications and increasing magazine capacity they made it closer to Limited/Open divisions, so it bled people from those divisions as well as those that wanted to shoot Minor but wanted to have higher capacity.

 

They basically turned CO into 'One Ring to Rule them All'. In my opinion they ruined it its the main reason why I quit the sport.

 

I preferred the original intent, ie. Production Optics with the same ruleset as Production but with a dot. So if Prod/Optics went to 15 then so would Production. There would be no need to go to higher capacity as it would impact the other divisions.

 

I think the balance of the four main divisions was up-ended by the changes to CO… Its too late now, they will never hit the reset button. 

 

 

 

Too true.  By making the changes to Production Optics that they did, they did change the balance of the different divisions.  Better to make CO Open Minor and let Production Optics re-emerge with the 10 round capacity and if it eventually went to 15, so be it.  This way everyone can stay happy.  Makes me want to run for the BOD to push this notion.  

[rowdyb]

I shot multiple CO matches when it was still 10 rounds, level 2 and 3. I agree the name should be changed to Production Optics. Thankfully changing magazine capacity would be the least painful change to most gun owners so I think it could be changed to 15 rounds and the hurt feelings would quickly heal.

And yeah, I can see how you view CO as the best of all the worlds kind of division. Based on a reliable and reasonably priced Prod gun, enough mods allowed to satisfy tinker types, a dot, 23 rounds in a mag so more than Lim gets, the cheapest ammo to shoot and none of the stress of loading major in 9 minor and finally a sight than many find preferable to iron sights. Add that up with a competition pool where you'll never feel left out and it really is the new 800lb gorilla of divisions.

So you would save Prod by uncoupling it from CO? Or just the single capacity change. Thank you for letting me see it in a new way.

[Agent #1911]

21 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

.So you would save Prod by uncoupling it from CO? Or just the single capacity change. Thank you for letting me see it in a new way.

 

IMO, the main difference between the two divisions should be iron vs optic. 15 rounds limit for both. I’d start with these. 

[waktasz]

Definitely change the largest and most popular division. Seems smart.

[BritinUSA]

It’s only the largest division because it has robbed the others. Eventually participation in the other divisions will drop below the ‘break-down point’. This is the point where participation in some clubs drops low enough that people move to other divisions so they have someone to shoot against.

 

This is a similar mechanism that causes new divisions to grow. There is a slow period where very few people are shooting it, then it hits a certain ‘break-out point’ where enough people are competing that it encourages others to try it, and then it grows rapidly.

 

It is entirely possible that CO will pull enough competitors away from the other divisions that they end up like Revolver; Then there will be one division, and all choice will be gone.

 

There was a balance, and now it’s gone…
 

The divisions need to complement one another, while offering variations that appeal to different people. Instead focus was directed at a single division, to the detriment of the others.

[-JCN-]

There are a s#!t ton of new shooters because of CO. I didn’t run USPSA because I didn’t like the rule set… until 140mm CO came out. 
 

Let the other divisions die out. Next thing you’ll be asking for iron sight PCC and 15 round carbine mags. 
 

Reloading for civilians is stupid, IMO. 

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

It’s only the largest division because it has robbed the others.

translation: it's the largest division because people like it better than the others, so we should f*** it up, so fewer people would like it.  That sounds pretty silly when you say it out loud.....

 

I personally still prefer irons to dots because I'm only 60 and not a decrepit old geezer like the rest of y'all, but imho the current CO division rules are pretty much perfect, and I plan to continue shooting it 3-4 months a year to learn and to be prepared for when i become a decrepit old geezer that can't see my irons.

 

I started in prod, but I'm comfortable letting it die. Let's see if the prod die-hards have enough work ethic to start their own division-only matches (like SS shooters do).

Edited November 29, 2021 by motosapiens

[BritinUSA]

No, what is silly is people denigrating an idea with insults in order to discourage its discussion, rather than using logic and reason to address the real concerns that others have about an issue.

[waktasz]

40 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

It’s only the largest division because it has robbed the others. Eventually participation in the other divisions will drop below the ‘break-down point’. This is the point where participation in some clubs drops low enough that people move to other divisions so they have someone to shoot against.

 

This is a similar mechanism that causes new divisions to grow. There is a slow period where very few people are shooting it, then it hits a certain ‘break-out point’ where enough people are competing that it encourages others to try it, and then it grows rapidly.

 

It is entirely possible that CO will pull enough competitors away from the other divisions that they end up like Revolver; Then there will be one division, and all choice will be gone.

 

There was a balance, and now it’s gone…
 

The divisions need to complement one another, while offering variations that appeal to different people. Instead focus was directed at a single division, to the detriment of the others.

 

This is nonsense. "Focus was directed at a single division"

Open, Limited, SS, etc have not changed. If CO is popular it's because people like it and choose to compete there, and this is a "problem" ?

[SGT_Schultz]

49 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

The divisions need to complement one another

 

That requirement exists only in your imagination.

 

99% of the people who shoot this sport don't care about your idea of balance.  They simply shoot what they like without regard to "balance" or "equity" or any other such nonsense.

 

It just to happens that CO has hit a formula that resonates wildly with a LOT of shooters (me included).  Wrecking its appeal only to satisfy your vanity is not going to do ANYTHING to make people choose other divisions they do not like anyway.

 

If you made CO unappealing, I'd just as soon leave the sport and do something more with my rifles.  I have zero interest in the hassle and expense of open and I will NOT shoot a pistol with iron sights any more.

 

I believe I'm not the only one who feels that way.