MikeBurgess Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 43 minutes ago, broadside72 said: Actually this is required since the firearm is not the correct ready condition so you can't be started. If the firearm ready condition is loaded start then you aren't loaded if no mag is in the gun. Remember a loaded gun includes a mag with ammo in the gun, does not have to be chambered in that case. The RO can only ignore you failing to chamber a round. so I can draw my gun at make ready and rack out a live round? are you are saying that is by definition not loaded? Loaded is ammo or ammo replica (case snap cap etc. in gun magazine or not chambered or not. so if the above shooter loaded from his Barny mag then holstered (I have done this) that's loaded and holstered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said: so I can draw my gun at make ready and rack out a live round? are you are saying that is by definition not loaded? Loaded is ammo or ammo replica (case snap cap etc. in gun magazine or not chambered or not. so if the above shooter loaded from his Barny mag then holstered (I have done this) that's loaded and holstered I only used one example of a loaded firearm definition "Loaded firearm: A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm." and my comment was in the context of the post I quoted that was implying it was wrong/coaching of the RO to wait for the shooter to load his gun because he didn't have a mag inserted. I was assuming that in the situation being described in the quoted post was one where a barney round had not been used and the gun was unloaded by definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diver123 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 2 hours ago, broadside72 said: Actually this is required since the firearm is not the correct ready condition so you can't be started. If the firearm ready condition is loaded start then you aren't loaded if no mag is in the gun. Remember a loaded gun includes a mag with ammo in the gun, does not have to be chambered in that case. The RO can only ignore you failing to chamber a round. Actually it is NOT required. You dont load the gun its on you 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, Diver123 said: Actually it is NOT required. You dont load the gun its on you 100%. 8.1 Firearm Ready Conditions The ready condition for firearms will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the firearm. This says otherwise. It does not say fails to load the firearm but specifically fails to chamber a round. Since a loaded gun includes having a loaded mag in the gun, chambered round or not, the gun is not in the firearm ready condition when a loaded start is required if the gun is unloaded (nothing chambered and nothing in the magwell). The shooter should not be started until the starting position AND firearm ready condition is met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Diver123 said: Actually it is NOT required. You dont load the gun its on you 100%. We have hashed this out a few times on here, but preparing the firearm according to the WSB is something you MUST do at make ready according to 8.3.1. I know some want to disagree, but it is not my opinion, just what the rulebook says. Well it appears that NROI ruled against the rulebook, so never mind LOL Edited October 28, 2020 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 2 hours ago, broadside72 said: Actually this is required since the firearm is not the correct ready condition so you can't be started. If the firearm ready condition is loaded start then you aren't loaded if no mag is in the gun. Remember a loaded gun includes a mag with ammo in the gun, does not have to be chambered in that case. The RO can only ignore you failing to chamber a round. https://nroi.org/rules-insights/but-they-were-unloaded/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Southpaw said: https://nroi.org/rules-insights/but-they-were-unloaded/ Interesting that this clearly opposes the wording of what MUST happen in 8.3.1, before a competitor takes the start position, but if it is the the ruling it is fine with me. Thanks for posting 8.3.1 Make Ready – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face downrange, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the specified start position. The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position Edited October 28, 2020 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diver123 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 (edited) https://nroi.org/rules-insights/but-they-were-unloaded/#more-1930 Yes hashed out and ignored by many. You dont load the firearm its all on you. Edited October 28, 2020 by Diver123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 8 minutes ago, Southpaw said: https://nroi.org/rules-insights/but-they-were-unloaded/ And that article directly contradicts itself. It says the rules states "fails to load the chamber when permitted". It does NOT say anything about failing to the load the gun, which is satisfied by simply inserting a loaded magazine into the firearm, chambered round or not. So I stand by my reading of the actual words in the rulebook. Empty chamber and no loaded mag in gun, then you can't start them on a loaded start. If they insert a mag and don't chamber a round, then start away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 Though I will admit that 8.1.1 and 8.1.2 reference loaded chamber, but most WSB's say "handgun loaded and holstered" and that is the condition that must be met by definition. So once again the rulebook is contradictory. Can't start until the firearm is in the ready condition but the ready condition (if called out as meeting 8.1.1/8.1.2) requires loaded chamber, though we can't require that condition to be met. 8.1.3 lets the WSB state whatever we want and that is usually just "loaded and holstered" or "loaded, safety applied, stock on belt" for example. So then you go by the definition of loaded firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 3 hours ago, broadside72 said: Actually this is required since the firearm is not the correct ready condition so you can't be started. If the firearm ready condition is loaded start then you aren't loaded if no mag is in the gun. Remember a loaded gun includes a mag with ammo in the gun, does not have to be chambered in that case. The RO can only ignore you failing to chamber a round. That's funny, I have to use that line next time Glossary specifies "loaded" as having a round/dummy round in the chamber or in the magazine. Having chambered a round from Barney made the gun loaded. I still really like your thinking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, IVC said: That's funny, I have to use that line next time Glossary specifies "loaded" as having a round/dummy round in the chamber or in the magazine. Having chambered a round from Barney made the gun loaded. I still really like your thinking... To be clear, I am only talking about loaded per glossary definition and the WSB saying that it's a loaded start. Empty chamber and magwell without rounds in it is the situation I am concerned with here and if it's coaching or a valid condition to start the shooter. The starting paragraph of 8.1 only references loaded chamber. Of course this is easily rectified if they just change that bit from "fails to load the chamber" to "fails to load the firearm" then this all goes away and the contradictions disappear Edited October 28, 2020 by broadside72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 The rule book does not cover tone, inflection or accents for the delivery of commands. You also cannot control or dictate what a shooter will infer by delivery of the command. think we’ll see a brief from hq in this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoyGlock Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said: Dude lighten up. Hahaha yup! Now read above how this led to so many (mis)interpretations if we tend to bend the rules, its not about being dead serious or what, its consistent application of the rules. I see where you guys are coming from. Mine is from IPSC view w/c is not exactly USPSA but I believe the respect for the respective rules should be the same. I attended only one club level match there where I ROed for my squad/friends. I joked and laughed w/ them everytime outside of a COF, but when I LAMR I sounded and acted businesslike and they respected the position. And I stuck by the rules, we finished the match w/o any incident. And they are still my friends til now. We are playing w/ guns here loaded w/ live ammo and the last thing I would want is everyone to lighten up and bend/break the rules... Edited October 29, 2020 by BoyGlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoyGlock Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said: Reductio ad absurdum Really!Better to discuss the issues than argue dude Edited October 29, 2020 by BoyGlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcfoto Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 Back to the OP’s topic, no: emphasis is not regulated. My experience is the RO may emphasize “If” in the command when a targets been missed but I’ve learned to ignore it as it’s seldom on the last array so not worth the time to retrace the stage to find a missed target. As an RO, I remember the instructor emphasized that the IFYAF,UASC command is in fact a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 It's fun to do it to your buddies on practice night. You know they haven't seen a missed steel. They are clearly done shooting and you give them the iiiifffffff, they know whats up, look around and you can see the disappointment is in their body language. It has happened to me too. At a club/monthly and above match, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming the Merciless Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 1 hour ago, zombywoof said: It's fun to do it to your buddies on practice night. You know they haven't seen a missed steel. They are clearly done shooting and you give them the iiiifffffff, they know whats up, look around and you can see the disappointment is in their body language. It has happened to me too. At a club/monthly and above match, no. It is best done to your shooting buddies after they have just made a smoking run and have engaged all the targets! The deer in the headlights look is priceless. Then make sure to issue a 'STOP' command if necessary before they re-engage some targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkD Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 On 10/27/2020 at 8:09 PM, Schutzenmeister said: Another thing I've seen, in a case like above, is for the RO to stand there quietly for 2-3 seconds before issuing the command. The shooter will sometimes figure it out, sometimes not. But the RO hasn't said or pointed to anything. Is this coaching? Perhaps, perhaps not. But it's about as subtle as it can be! Wouldn't waiting a couple of seconds just be giving the shooter a chance to finish the stage without being able to accuse the RO of rushing the shooter? I have seen shooters forget targets and the RO go right into the if you are finished unload and show clear, only for the shooter to immediately retreat to go back up range to shoot a target then get a reshoot for RO Interference. On 10/28/2020 at 2:55 PM, broadside72 said: Actually this is required since the firearm is not the correct ready condition so you can't be started. If the firearm ready condition is loaded start then you aren't loaded if no mag is in the gun. Remember a loaded gun includes a mag with ammo in the gun, does not have to be chambered in that case. The RO can only ignore you failing to chamber a round. wrong, that is not the start position, that is start the condition of the gun, if the shooter forgets to put a mag in the gun and assumes the proper start position the RO needs to start the shooter. 8.1 Firearm Ready Conditions The ready condition for firearms will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my00wrx1 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 (edited) On 11/12/2020 at 11:54 PM, DirkD said: 8.1 Firearm Ready Conditions The ready condition for firearms will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the firearm. RO: Load and make ready Shooter: *makes ready but forgets to chamber a round* RO: *takes no action* Shooter: Hey, I’m ready RO: *takes no action* Shooter: ... Edited November 13, 2020 by my00wrx1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchapman Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 1 hour ago, my00wrx1 said: RO: Load and make ready Shooter: *makes ready but forgets to chamber a round* RO: *takes no action* Shooter: Hey, I’m ready RO: *takes no action* Shooter: ... No, I believe that it is; RO==make ready Shooter== makes ready but forgets to chamber a round RO== Standby 1 to 4 secs later beep. The take no action is telling you that the RO can NOT tell the shooter to chamber a round. 8.1 shooters responsibility takes over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 At Level I I've done the "IF" a bit more emphasized than usual and it never occurred to me that it "was" coaching, technically it is. Don't remember anyone ever paying attention to it though? Maybe I'll just hesitate before I start the ULSC process and not change up my cadence in the future. I hope there's a future match I RO at! At Level II and up, I'd never even think about it! Too many Range Lawyers about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming the Merciless Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 2 hours ago, mchapman said: No, I believe that it is; RO==make ready Shooter== makes ready but forgets to chamber a round RO== Standby 1 to 4 secs later beep. The take no action is telling you that the RO can NOT tell the shooter to chamber a round. 8.1 shooters responsibility takes over. The peanut gallery snickering is usually the tip off for me.....which I usually ignore, to my deficit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkD Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 5 hours ago, my00wrx1 said: RO: Load and make ready Shooter: *makes ready but forgets to chamber a round* RO: *takes no action* Shooter: Hey, I’m ready RO: *takes no action* Shooter: ... Are you a certified Range Officer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, my00wrx1 said: RO: Load and make ready Shooter: *makes ready but forgets to chamber a round* RO: *takes no action* Shooter: Hey, I’m ready RO: *takes no action* Shooter: ... That's not how it works Those aren't even our range commands anyway. I don't even need to ask if you're a certified RO. I know. Edited November 14, 2020 by SGT_Schultz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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