is a long " if you are finished" addressed in the rule book?

[Sandbagger123]

just this past weekend i was at , an RO used a long " if you are finished "  when the shooter was done.  he clearly did this to give a hint to the shooter that he had forgot to shoot a target that was behind a barrel in front of him.   i have seen it a few times before in the past ,and thought giving these hints is wrong.

 

So  I would think of this as coaching.   is this  kind of action addressed in the rule book?

[jcc7x7]

Tuff to prove!!!! and politely as I can put it, didn't realize it was the galleries job to RO the RO.

Address via the MD and be ready to take over ROing at those matches

 

Summary:

Yes it's done, yes it's probably coaching.

Honestly by the time that is done, if the shooter finds the lost target and shoots it , it won;t make a difference in their score because the the large amount of time that has gone by!

[Robertwil18]

I suppose it really depends on the situation.  If i have a brand new shooter, who is attending their first 2 matches or so, with no background in shooting sports, and at a local, Level 1 match, it's not going to hurt my feelings one bit if the RO chooses to give the shooter a helpful "hint" or two during the COF, or throughout the match.  It's no different than telling a new shooter to "watch the 180" as they are moving or reloading in an effort to right them, and keep them engaged and learning, which at that level, i personally don't have an issue with.  

I get it.  There is a rulebook, and the rules should be followed universally, but at a local level, with newer shooters, i think there is some leeway to "coach" a lesser experienced or lesser skilled shooter, to keep them safe, make them want to return, and bring newer shooters who may be intimidated to the sport.  I suppose if this is the hill to die on, those matches must already be measuring gear placement, running a chrono/safety stage, and hammering people for other more obvious violations.

Now....in the case of a known, experienced shooter.  No, it shouldn't be happening, unless this is their natural cadence and this is what they are doing every time, with every shooter to avoid the verbal cue that is, "hey dummy, you miss something??"   Plus, by that time, so much time has gone by that even if they were to decide to engage, they aren't gaining a competitive advantage...at least i couldn't imagine so.  

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Robertwil18

[jwhittin]

7 minutes ago, jcc7x7 said:

Summary:

Yes it's done, yes it's probably coaching.

Honestly by the time that is done, if the shooter finds the lost target and shoots it , it won;t make a difference in their score because the the large amount of time that has gone by!

I agree! Technically I think it is coaching. 

I have seen this for new shooters.  

[Sarge]

Coaching is allowed at level I matches. Technically even for veteran shooters.

8.6.2.1

When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request. Range Officials may safety coach

competitors as needed, unless a safety violation occurs

[BoyGlock]

In IPSC its a standard command in the rulebook. Not to coach but to have the responsibility of ULSC on the shooter, not on the RO. Same with “IF clear...” if any unsafe action made by the shooter after those commands, its on the shooter not the RO. 
 

USPSA is not IPSC, i know...

[teros135]

51 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Coaching is allowed at level I matches. Technically even for veteran shooters.

8.6.2.1

When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request. Range Officials may safety coach

competitors as needed, unless a safety violation occurs

 

..."they request"...

[Schutzenmeister]

Another thing I've seen, in a case like above, is for the RO to stand there quietly for 2-3 seconds before issuing the command.  The shooter will sometimes figure it out, sometimes not.  But the RO hasn't said or pointed to anything.  Is this coaching?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  But it's about as subtle as it can be!

[HCH]

4 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

Tuff to prove!!!! and politely as I can put it, didn't realize it was the galleries job to RO the RO.

Address via the MD and be ready to take over ROing at those matches

 

Summary:

Yes it's done, yes it's probably coaching.

Honestly by the time that is done, if the shooter finds the lost target and shoots it , it won;t make a difference in their score because the the large amount of time that has gone by!

Pretty much my thoughts. 

[Boomstick303]

Typically done when new shooters are involved at level 1 matches from what I have noticed.  I don't think this is acceptable at level II and above matches.  I believe this was discussed in this manner during my RO class given by NROI.  

 

I think its fine for anyone at level 1 matches as its not a major match.   As indicated by comments above, if the shooter chooses to "correct" the missed target it most likely is going to be a wash or be worse than if they had not shot at the target at all.  

More so I think it is done for comedic effect amongst "friends" on the squad.  At least it seems that way to me.  

 

I think we all can admit it is kind of funny to watch the shooter who understands the cue start whipping their head back and forth wondering what target they missed. 

[BentAero]

11 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

More so I think it is done for comedic effect amongst "friends" on the squad.  At least it seems that way to me.  

 

I think we all can admit it is kind of funny to watch the shooter who understands the cue start whipping their head back and forth wondering what target they missed. 

 

Nailed it. At the local level 1 uspsa matches near me, probably 85% of the shooters in a given squad all know each other and have shot together dozens of times. When you hear the emphatic *IF* you are finished... " question/command, by the time you realize what he's trying to tell you, it's far too late to fix. It's definitely a razz your buddy moment.

[waktasz]

4 hours ago, BoyGlock said:

In IPSC its a standard command in the rulebook. Not to coach but to have the responsibility of ULSC on the shooter, not on the RO. Same with “IF clear...” if any unsafe action made by the shooter after those commands, its on the shooter not the RO. 
 

USPSA is not IPSC, i know...

 

The question is if phrasing it as "ifffffffffffff you are finished, unload and show clear" is ok or not

[BoyGlock]

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

 

The question is if phrasing it as "ifffffffffffff you are finished, unload and show clear" is ok or not

Well theres really notable differences between ipsc and uspsa that would not contribute any to suspect coaching, no matter how you say “ifffffff.” In ipsc shooters donot do RO duty, it has full time ROs even in level 1 matches, so that issue of being too friendly and helpful are largley negated. Even if the RO is closely identified w/ the shooter, it would be shameful for him to even hint any assistance to favor a shooter. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by BoyGlock

[BoyGlock]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

The question is if phrasing it as "ifffffffffffff you are finished, unload and show clear" is ok or not

No its not ok, more so if RO is closely related to the shooter. Ipsc or not. As an RO you are/must be fair to all shooters at all times. No matter the level of the sanctioned match. 

[IVC]

It is not coaching since it is an approved command and the rulebook doesn't specify how it must be pronounced.

 

This is the type of stuff that we shouldn't sweat - at higher level matches the RO-s will be (or are expected to be) quite professional and "by the book" so they will simply go through the paces without emotion or providing hints. At lower level matches, it's usually part of the local camaraderie and it's done more for an effect - the shooter blew that stage even if he figures out where the targets are and finishes them off. No big deal either way.

 

Just a month or so back I was on my first stage at a local match, brought along my girlfriend and was making sure she understood the process so I wasn't quite concentrating, I got the "make ready," assumed the start position.... nothing.... waiting... nothing. Look at the RO, he looks away, I am confused, half the squad is laughing, I touch my gun and feel the empty magwell. It was a good laugh and I didn't win anything because there were no prizes anyways. I'd say no big deal at L1, but I certainly wouldn't expect that at higher level matches and would consider it wrong, even if it's technically a gray area. 

[jcc7x7]

3 hours ago, IVC said:

It is not coaching since it is an approved command and the rulebook doesn't specify how it must be pronounced.

 

This is the type of stuff that we shouldn't sweat - at higher level matches the RO-s will be (or are expected to be) quite professional and "by the book" so they will simply go through the paces without emotion or providing hints. At lower level matches, it's usually part of the local camaraderie and it's done more for an effect - the shooter blew that stage even if he figures out where the targets are and finishes them off. No big deal either way.

 

Just a month or so back I was on my first stage at a local match, brought along my girlfriend and was making sure she understood the process so I wasn't quite concentrating, I got the "make ready," assumed the start position.... nothing.... waiting... nothing. Look at the RO, he looks away, I am confused, half the squad is laughing, I touch my gun and feel the empty magwell. It was a good laugh and I didn't win anything because there were no prizes anyways. I'd say no big deal at L1, but I certainly wouldn't expect that at higher level matches and would consider it wrong, even if it's technically a gray area. 

Amen

[BoyGlock]

5 hours ago, IVC said:

It is not coaching since it is an approved command and the rulebook doesn't specify how it must be pronounced.

 

This is the type of stuff that we shouldn't sweat - at higher level matches the RO-s will be (or are expected to be) quite professional and "by the book" so they will simply go through the paces without emotion or providing hints. At lower level matches, it's usually part of the local camaraderie and it's done more for an effect - the shooter blew that stage even if he figures out where the targets are and finishes them off. No big deal either way.

 

Just a month or so back I was on my first stage at a local match, brought along my girlfriend and was making sure she understood the process so I wasn't quite concentrating, I got the "make ready," assumed the start position.... nothing.... waiting... nothing. Look at the RO, he looks away, I am confused, half the squad is laughing, I touch my gun and feel the empty magwell. It was a good laugh and I didn't win anything because there were no prizes anyways. I'd say no big deal at L1, but I certainly wouldn't expect that at higher level matches and would consider it wrong, even if it's technically a gray area. 

So the interpretation and application of the rulebook depends on the level of matches?

[Zincwarrior]

I've done that multiple times. Helpful for a new shooter. For a regular shooter its their opportunity to hang their head in shame.

 

If the gallery thought that was a problem, that would be the immediate point the gallery can RO the rest of the day.

[SGT_Schultz]

8 hours ago, BoyGlock said:

No its not ok, more so if RO is closely related to the shooter. Ipsc or not. As an RO you are/must be fair to all shooters at all times. No matter the level of the sanctioned match. 

Dude lighten up.  

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, BoyGlock said:

So the interpretation and application of the rulebook depends on the level of matches?

Reductio ad absurdum

[slowhands]

2 hours ago, BoyGlock said:

So the interpretation and application of the rulebook depends on the level of matches?

 

Yes, the rules are literally different at level I matches. But I personally won't tip off a brand new shooter about a missed target because I've had to DQ first-time shooters who broke the 180 trying to get back to a forgotten array. 

[Fishbreath]

14 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Another thing I've seen, in a case like above, is for the RO to stand there quietly for 2-3 seconds before issuing the command.

 

I'm not a highly experienced RO—I've only worked one major since I got my certification this spring—but I'll usually wait for the shooter's body language to say 'I'm done' before I start with ULSC.

[IVC]

3 hours ago, BoyGlock said:

So the interpretation and application of the rulebook depends on the level of matches?

Are we talking theory or reality? 

 

And, in this case, it was all by the book - there is no rule that says how the command must be said or what the body language needs to be. So, it comes down to the fair application of the rules, which it is if the whole squad feels it is. 

[Lastcat]

18 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

Tuff to prove!!!! and politely as I can put it, didn't realize it was the galleries job to RO the RO.

Address via the MD and be ready to take over ROing at those matches

 

Summary:

Yes it's done, yes it's probably coaching.

Honestly by the time that is done, if the shooter finds the lost target and shoots it , it won;t make a difference in their score because the the large amount of time that has gone by!

 

 This

[broadside72]

12 hours ago, IVC said:

Just a month or so back I was on my first stage at a local match, brought along my girlfriend and was making sure she understood the process so I wasn't quite concentrating, I got the "make ready," assumed the start position.... nothing.... waiting... nothing. Look at the RO, he looks away, I am confused, half the squad is laughing, I touch my gun and feel the empty magwell. It was a good laugh and I didn't win anything because there were no prizes anyways. I'd say no big deal at L1, but I certainly wouldn't expect that at higher level matches and would consider it wrong, even if it's technically a gray area. 

Actually this is required since the firearm is not the correct ready condition so you can't be started. If the firearm ready condition is loaded start then you aren't loaded if no mag is in the gun. Remember a loaded gun includes a mag with ammo in the gun, does not have to be chambered in that case. The RO can only ignore you failing to chamber a round.