The progression of CO

[j1b]

It's clear CO has gained and will continue to gain. I shot production yesterday in a high round count match and I felt the disadvantage. But CO is helping grow the sport and that can only be a good thing!

 

It's funny, in the match I'm competing with who ever is in the squad. No matter the division. Try and hang with whoever is best in your squad. 

 

But when the results come out and I see all those PCC and CO names in front of mine I'm still ok with it. It shows room for growth for me shooting my equipment of choice. And we have some real rock stars around here that often times win against all those PCC and CO guns ... and I will be honest. I love seeing that

 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Overscore said:

 

I have the ability to care about more than one thing.

but no one else cares about those things, lol. I'm sure everyone would love for the sport to be changed to cater to their individual preferences.

[rowdyb]

1 hour ago, JGus said:

are now shooting CO.

And here locally, the half humorous disdain of PCC has still held and it seems stagnant in both growth, shooters, and guns.

[Racinready300ex]

53 minutes ago, j1b said:

 But CO is helping grow the sport and that can only be a good thing!

 

 

Is it?? I feel like locally I see a lot of the same people, and turn out at matches is the same. The difference is CO has gotten huge, all the other divisions have gotten smaller and less competitive. 

[Darqusoull13]

Odd, we are seeing both PCC and CO growing @rowdyb. PCC is still far more popular but we also have no one shooting open. Must be all the former 3 gunners  

[j1b]

8 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

Is it?? I feel like locally I see a lot of the same people, and turn out at matches is the same. The difference is CO has gotten huge, all the other divisions have gotten smaller and less competitive. 

Be curious if Practiscore has stats around this. I thought I'd heard that there was some growth. Reality is if 100 people normally show up and now its 105 then that's 5% growth. But I get your point - maybe it is all the same people. I can certainly personally attest that my participation has ebbed and flowed many different times over the years. 

[rowdyb]

12 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Odd, we are seeing both PCC and CO growing @rowdyb. PCC is still far more popular but we also have no one shooting open. Must be all the former 3 gunners  

I'd totally agree with the idea that if you have a strong 3 gun thing locally then PCC will be bigger than in areas where 3 gun has stagnated. I am not a 3gun person, shooting maybe one match a year of it, but I don't think SA is exactly a thriving 3 gun city.

 

There are good PCC shooters in SA for sure! But their numbers don't come close to CO. You seriously have a uspsa match with zero Open shooters on the regular?

Edited August 17, 2020 by rowdyb

[terrapin]

On the flip side, I wonder how the surge in CO is going to impact 3gun numbers. Right now it pushes people over to open division... with a completely different equipment lineup.


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[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, j1b said:

Be curious if Practiscore has stats around this. I thought I'd heard that there was some growth. Reality is if 100 people normally show up and now its 105 then that's 5% growth. But I get your point - maybe it is all the same people. I can certainly personally attest that my participation has ebbed and flowed many different times over the years. 

 

Around here clubs fill to capacity and there are waiting lists. There really isn't room for growth. So this area may not be a good example. 

[Darqusoull13]

@rowdyb correct, zero Open shooters. We have a smaller match compared to APSC with between 20-40 shooters. The only people that show up for Open every couple matches are the Tacticool guys with comps on their Glocks. 

CO is growing every month, again some from the Tacticool crowd and some from the old eyes crowd. Then there's me that loves the dot but hates brain damage of major power factor grenades a foot from my face. 

[Intheshaw1]

3 hours ago, terrapin said:

On the flip side, I wonder how the surge in CO is going to impact 3gun numbers. Right now it pushes people over to open division... with a completely different equipment lineup.


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If 3 gun changed to allow CO in tac ops, I would run that for sure. Right now I mostly shoot limited minor with my 3 gun rig for the practice but have been toying around with picking up another gun that would house a dot full time.

 

I'm in the young and mobile crowd. I would love production if they increased mag capacity but instead I shoot limited minor.

[BritinUSA]

I was shooting a ‘production optics’ gun long before it became an official division. When it achieved provisional status the objective (from a BOD member) was to have a very restrictive ruleset, and make small adjustments based on feedback.

 

When Production division was announced it took about 2 years before it became popular, but CO was not given the same amount of time. It was not long before the rules were adjusted. 

 

While the changes to minor components had a limited impact, the change to magazine capacity changed the division enormously in two ways.

 

Firstly, it significantly increased the cost of magazines due to base pads and corresponding followers and springs. In order to be competitive, we had to reach 20-23 rounds per magazine. Vendors were happy.

 

Secondly, it made the division easier; Some might see this as a good thing, they prefer easy rather than demanding and while this has almost certainly led to more participation in the division, the risk/reward ratio has changed. 

 

With more rounds available, the competitor can take more risk knowing that they have an abundance of spare rounds to make up any lapse in skills.

 

CO was challenging with 10 rounds, they could have retained that difficulty with a 15 round limit, which I think would also apply to Production. 

 

I enjoyed the challenge at 10 and would have continued shooting at 15 but I think they killed it with the 140mm magazines. They could have kept the box with the magazine inserted, it was so simple.

 

I haven’t shot a match since CO Nationals last year, it no longer has any appeal to me.

Edited August 18, 2020 by BritinUSA

[IVC]

4 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Secondly, it made the division easier; Some might see this as a good thing, they prefer easy rather than demanding and while this has almost certainly led to more participation in the division, the risk/reward ratio has changed. 

Not sure why would anyone consider it to be "harder" when you reload a few extra times. Mess up the strategy, have a standing reload, eat up some time, but is that really harder? 

 

A marathon is harder than a 10K race, but if all they do is make you wear pink shorts and have to stop at every water station until you have finished your drink, you'll be slower and look silly to some, but it won't be harder, just slower. 

[rowdyb]

I heard a saying that went something like "Most things are easy if you do them slowly. Try to do the same thing way faster and it gets much harder." People who say CO is easier aren't shooting fast enough, hahahaha.

 

So to recap, in 4 years the division has changed rules, seen local and major match participation increase, had manufacturers create more guns, and they speed and style of those shooting the division has changed. What we don't have is an unbreakable dot. Is the optic the last remaining place for development or progression??

[JGus]

11 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

I was shooting a ‘production optics’ gun long before it became an official division. When it achieved provisional status the objective (from a BOD member) was to have a very restrictive ruleset, and make small adjustments based on feedback.

 

When Production division was announced it took about 2 years before it became popular, but CO was not given the same amount of time. It was not long before the rules were adjusted. 

 

While the changes to minor components had a limited impact, the change to magazine capacity changed the division enormously in two ways.

 

Firstly, it significantly increased the cost of magazines due to base pads and corresponding followers and springs. In order to be competitive, we had to reach 20-23 rounds per magazine. Vendors were happy.

 

Secondly, it made the division easier; Some might see this as a good thing, they prefer easy rather than demanding and while this has almost certainly led to more participation in the division, the risk/reward ratio has changed. 

 

With more rounds available, the competitor can take more risk knowing that they have an abundance of spare rounds to make up any lapse in skills.

 

CO was challenging with 10 rounds, they could have retained that difficulty with a 15 round limit, which I think would also apply to Production. 

 

I enjoyed the challenge at 10 and would have continued shooting at 15 but I think they killed it with the 140mm magazines. They could have kept the box with the magazine inserted, it was so simple.

 

I haven’t shot a match since CO Nationals last year, it no longer has any appeal to me.

 

 

A couple things.  When you talk about "significant" increase in the cost of mags, I don't see it? When I was shooting Production, I still had Springer basepads on my mags. With my Sig X5 Legion it came with three 21 round mags. I bought two extra mags that I put on Springer basepads and grams followers so I have two mags that can hold 23. A sanctioned match isn't going to have a 40 plus round stage so you only need one or two extra capacity mags.  And you don't need as many mags as you would in Production, so that's a cost saving, too.  I'd call it a wash.

 

You also mention that these changes that allow greater mag capacity have made the division "easier."  Participation also exploded with the change.  But If that's the case that less mag changes makes the division easier then would that make Limited just as easy as CO, and Open division the easiest division of all?  I guess it's all a matter of perspective. In my opinion, and it's just mine, but it's not so much the less mag changes that make the division "easier" than production, but the fact that I have a red dot on my gun and it makes calling my shots a lot easier.  But, people have a choice.  If they want to shoot what they perceive to be a harder division based on mag changes, they can shoot Production, SS, or even revolver. 

 

First and foremost people shoot USPSA because they have fun with it. That's true even with the pro's.  So if the changes to CO make it a more fun division to shoot, so be it.

[zzt]

Truth be told, I never saw the logic in limiting Production to ten rounds.  It is almost universally shot with hicap pistols.  They only reason I can think of is to maintain consistency with 10-round mag States.  If it were to change I'd go to full standard factory mag capacity.  Why limit it to 15 if the mag will hold 17?  I don't think 15 buys you that much.  17 does.

 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I quit Limited and went to Open.  I was tired of going home with a splitting headache and a severe eye ache after every match.  I shot Limited the first match in 2016 and said enough.  Back then CO was still (I believe) provisional.  I considered it, but didn't dive in because it was shot with (IMO) crappy guns.  I shot Limited with a CZ TS.  Fast forward to today.  I could shoot an S2 with a dot, or something similar.  It would be close to the TS.  I'd plan stages like Limited AND I could see my aiming point.  If I were switching from Limited today, that is the route I would go.  Plus, I'd shoot factory ammo as long as I could get it at pre-Covid prices.

[terrapin]

At the end of the day, for most of us this is a recreational pursuit. For the USPSA, it’s a business pursuit. The number one thing that should matter to them is if the decisions create new incremental sales... ie more people in a division without cannibalism of other divisions. Sure, “the good of the sport” and “competitive equity” and a zillion other things come into play; but the bottom line always has to be fore front.

I’m sure they are smart enough to see that carry optics is a huge success. Hopefully they are smart enough to realize that the consumers want high capacity magazines. They want 9mm for a host of reasons. They want guns that are readily available and with striking distance financially. They also want guns that are practical (but still competitive); after all, no matter how we label it, Practical shooting is a martial pursuit. They also want to feel successful; not just in their division, but in their overall standing. Using those criteria, it’s pretty easy to see why certain divisions are shrinking, and why divisions like CO and PCC are growing.

Revolver and Single Stack become less applicable every year and the numbers reflect that.

Limited 10 and Production will never be popular because the magazine capacity.

Limited is hampered by needing to buy an obsolete cartridge system (40S&W) on and obscure platform (2011) in order to be competitive (over simplified and over stated).

Open is a wildcard. Expensive guns, obscure calibers, specialized equipment... but genuine competitive advantages. Additionally, I think it will grow because of carry optics... it’s the natural progression as CO introduces the masses to the dot, then shows them the limitations associated with slide mounted optics and unmitigated recoil.

These are just my observations pretty much as an outsider. It is my opinion that it would be an incredibly different landscape if USPSA abandoned “power factor” scoring. Instantly, Limited and Open would be approachable and significantly more popular. CO and Prod would be stepping stones to those venues, instead of temporary detours.


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[MHicks]

In all divisions it's difficult to be near the top of the list of best shooters. But shooting a carbine with high capacity and a dot, for example, makes it easier to at least hit the targets for shooters who have a hard time doing it with a handgun with iron sights. Again, to compete with others in the same division still difficult. It's the same with other divisions that allow higher capacity, dot sights or both.

[zzt]

2 hours ago, terrapin said:

Limited is hampered by needing to buy an obsolete cartridge system (40S&W) on and obscure platform (2011) in order to be competitive (over simplified and over stated)

 

Then why is it that at my home club there is as much 40sw brass in the brass bins as 9mm?  Also, I can go down to my local Targetmaster and buy once-fired 40sw brass from their indoor range any time I want.  $15 for a bulk ammo box filled to the top.

[motosapiens]

haha, i think it might be a few more years before 40 is 'obsolete'. The federal agency I work for consolidated to 40 across the board a couple years ago, and surplused the last handful of 9's that some of the girls and sissies were carrying. I know at least one of the local county sheriff's are using 40's as well, because every now and then they leave a crap-ton of brass in the pit where they do quals.

Edited August 18, 2020 by motosapiens

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, terrapin said:

 It is my opinion that it would be an incredibly different landscape if USPSA abandoned “power factor” scoring

 

It would be, and IMO not for the better.

[motosapiens]

15 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

It would be, and IMO not for the better.

it would be better for pre-teen girls and sissies..... 

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

it would be better for pre-teen girls and sissies..... 

 

I have no intention of ever owning a pistol in 40 S&W or 45 ACP.  But I do love me my 357 Magnums.  I think I can hang with recoil.

 

But the point is that hit factor scoring is what gives USPSA a much wider envelope for shooters to work in compared to the alternatives.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I have no intention of ever owning a pistol in 40 S&W or 45 ACP.  But I do love me my 357 Magnums.  I think I can hang with recoil.

 

But the point is that hit factor scoring is what gives USPSA a much wider envelope for shooters to work in compared to the alternatives.

I agree with you, and i think it is one of the things that gives different divisions a different character. I enjoy both major (limited, SS major), and minor (CO, ss minor).

[rowdyb]

What effect would it have on division if Limited and Open were mandated major pf? And major/minor still your choice in L10 and SS.