2011 and Carry optics

[MHicks]

If single actions were allowed in CO would many Shadow shooters still start hammer down? Or just start cocked and locked or even convert to SA0? Might need to change the thumb safety. 

[Racinready300ex]

57 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

What's the matter?  You could not channel your inner @CClassForLife???????

 

I tried I guess lol. I did okay I lost to one open shooter and a couple CO guys. 

[Racinready300ex]

52 minutes ago, CClassForLife said:

 

 If more people started carrying compensated guns, then does it warrant consideration?

 

Really, nothing about our divisions seem to reflect carry gear. 

 

I live in MD, with the court making us shall issue back in June I've been helping a local company get people qualified. I'm seeing 50-60 shooters a weekend. Some bring carry guns, others what ever they shoot the best. I think some just bring what ever is nicest. 

 

I mostly see stock glocks. a few wheel guns and some 1911's. One Accu Shadow. Maybe 1 or 2 guys bring a gun with a slide mounted dot per class. A decent number of 320's too. A couple ported barrels. Yet to see a comp or a single 2011. This is a sample size of several hundred just average shooters/gun owners from this summer.

 

I don't think we really reflect the outside world. 

[BritinUSA]

1 hour ago, vluc said:

 Seems that was exactly what was done with lights, weights and thumb rests.

How much of that was due to member feedback, and how much due to vendor demands? We’ll probably never know for sure, but in my opinion every change in CO has come about due to vendors more than members.

[CC3D]

2 hours ago, vluc said:

 Seems that was exactly what was done with lights, weights and thumb rests.

yep. agree 100%. that was an unnecessary tweak to the rules to appease a minority of people and so is adding 2011's to CO

[regor]

I think the main problem with the 2011s in CO topic is that the primary pressure is coming from industry participants who are pushing it not out of any love for the sport or competitors but because they want to sell $$$ guns that are less likely to need warranty work because they don't have to deal with major PF ammo beating. None of these custom/semi-custom shops seem to have any issues keeping their books full, so this change won't increase their business, it will just increase their profits by shifting orders from more time consuming and demanding builds to ones they can crank out faster and with fewer warranty issues. 

 

I highly doubt that letting 2011s into CO will attract new folks to the sport in a meaningful way, it will just pull Limited and Open shooters into CO. How many folks have optics ready 2011s and are choosing not to shoot USPSA because there isn't a natural home for that setup? It doesn't seem like a good value-add to USPSA unless the org is getting some meaningful, long-term sponsorship agreements from the manufacturers. 

 

I'm not sure if the addition of lights actually brought in more participants but it seems like a more reasonable proposition that it would attract more first timers and anecdotally I have seen many more first-time shooters running MRDS + light combos this year than in years past. Even if the actual retention rate of those new shooters isn't any higher it would still result in more total participants.

 

 

[Boomstick303]

39 minutes ago, regor said:

I think the main problem with the 2011s in CO topic is that the primary pressure is coming from industry participants who are pushing it not out of any love for the sport or competitors but because they want to sell $$$ guns

 

I keep hearing this, but what evidence do we have of this statement?  I am not saying they wouldn't welcome more customers, but as far as I know there is zero 2011 builders that are up to date on current orders.  Many of which have a wait list of at least a year to provide 2011 to their customers.  On top of that is every current CO shooter going to drop $6-$10K on a gun to keep shooting the same division?  I highly doubt that.  No, I would not accept "I heard (name any 2011 builder here) is pushing for SA to be approved for CO", as an answer in regards to this.  I am not saying they have not advocated, but I have yet to see this or read about it from any meaningful source anywhere other than the "internet".

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I keep hearing this, but what evidence do we have of this statement?  I am not saying they wouldn't welcome more customers, but as far as I know there is zero 2011 builders that are up to date on current orders.  Many of which have a wait list of at least a year to provide 2011 to their customers.  On top of that is every current CO shooter going to drop $6-$10K on a gun to keep shooting the same division?  I highly doubt that.  No, I would not accept "I heard (name any 2011 builder here) is pushing for SA to be approved for CO", as an answer in regards to this.  I am not saying they have not advocated, but I have yet to see this or read about it from any meaningful source anywhere other than the "internet".

 

Well infinity was going to have a match that was kind of a USPSA match but with 2011 CO guns right? 

 

I've seen posts on social media from people in the industry saying they wrote the BOD to get this change and had discussed it with the 2011 manufactures that he dealt with. Even saying they wouldn't shoot a match until this was a thing. 

 

I've certainly seen 2011 builders post they think it's silly their guns aren't can't be used in CO. 

 

The the BOD minutes mentioned a positive to the division idea being sponsorship money. 

 

Now that stuff alone doesn't mean they're pressuring USPSA to add this new division, but the BOD certainly is considering there $$$ when talking about this. 

 

I don't think the past changes had anything to do with sponsors. They were more about loosening the restrictions to get people into the sport. Which is ultimately about revenue.

[regor]

22 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

I keep hearing this, but what evidence do we have of this statement? 

 

There is a certain amount of hearsay, but at the member meeting at CO Nats one of the BOD members said the org was in discussion with manufacturers to have divisions where their guns could compete. Hard to imagine that alludes to anything other than 2011s in CO or a new division for them. Infinity was going to host a Major with a side match the day before for 2011-inclusive CO setups. 

 

26 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

I am not saying they wouldn't welcome more customers, but as far as I know there is zero 2011 builders that are up to date on current orders.  Many of which have a wait list of at least a year to provide 2011 to their customers.  On top of that is every current CO shooter going to drop $6-$10K on a gun to keep shooting the same division?  

 

Being up to date on orders is not relevant. If a builder can shift their books from making Open guns that require comp fitting, warrantying crack slides, tuning for ejection, extra milling for slide lightening, etc. to slide mounted, non-comped guns then their build times will be shorter and their profit margin will probably increase.

 

Your average person shooting CO is not going to suddenly decide to order an $8k open gun, but the person who was going to buy an $8k open gun might buy a $7k CO gun and switch divisions. Getting USPSA to add 2011s to CO would let these builders re-balance their books in a way that benefits them without actually stepping on the toes of competitors like STI did when they bailed from the competition market. 

 

Atlas has already shifted from a to-order model to an as-available with minimal modifications model and has made design choices (like switching from a titanium to steel comp on the Chaos 2.0) that make the gun cheaper to manufacture and decreases warranty work (loose comps). Idk how many guns per year they were making before vs after, but it seems pretty clear that there's a desire to reduce costs from the Open business.

[CC3D]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

I keep hearing this, but what evidence do we have of this statement?

There was a while there where infinity was posting their "2011 CO" builds on the competitive shooting subreddit over and over- was not well received and they got ratio'd a lot in the comments lol, haven't seen one of those posts in a while. You can search it up and read through the comments, it's pretty obvious what they're trying to do based on the tone of the posts. Not to mention infinity put on it's own match (infinity open 2022) under the USPSA rule set but created an entire division for 2011's with slide ride optics....

 

 

[RJH]

So now I'm beginning to wonder back in the old days of production and single stack, what Boomer decided that the 1911 was so much better than the Glock it had to have its own division. I think that had to be where all this perceived inequity started

[RangerTrace]

9 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm not sure I want to see local deputies carrying Staccatos. Do they really need $2,500 handguns? My taxes are high enough. I'd rather see them get a $500 gun and more training to use it. 

99% of the officers carrying one, bought it with personal funds.  There are probably a few exceptions, but I'm not personally away of one.

[motosapiens]

22 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

@motosapiens you should catch a flight to Cincinnati before too long.

 

This is always a fun match.

Who knows? This is my last year of working, and I'll have some extra leave to burn, so I'm considering showing up to 2023 CO nats a few days early and seeing if I can find a local match that previous weekend. Would be nice to acclimatize, see some sights and burn some ammo before nats instead of getting off a plane after 2 weeks straight of 14hr shifts and shooting the next morning.

 

Looks like 3rd sunday is usually sarge's local match. Maybe we'll show up June 18th.

Edited September 13, 2022 by motosapiens

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Who knows? This is my last year of working, and I'll have some extra leave to burn, so I'm considering showing up to 2023 CO nats a few days early and seeing if I can find a local match that previous weekend. Would be nice to acclimatize, see some sights and burn some ammo before nats instead of getting off a plane after 2 weeks straight of 14hr shifts and shooting the next morning.

 

Sarge's match falls on the CO Nationals weekend, but the monthly match at Miamisburg Sportsman's Club (OHS03 Miamisburg SC in PS) is on the third Sunday of the month which is the weekend prior to Nationals.

 

The Miamisburg club is 1h 30m from the Polaris Parkway area of Columbus which is where I imagine a lot of people will stay because it's a 30 min drive to Cardinal and has tons of amenities.

 

Hit me up if you come out early

[ChuckS]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

So now I'm beginning to wonder back in the old days of production and single stack, what Boomer decided that the 1911 was so much better than the Glock it had to have its own division. I think that had to be where all this perceived inequity started

I am not sure you could call Gary Stevens a boomer, perhaps an early boomer, whatever. Well, before the SS division, there was the Single Stack Classic put on by the 1911 Society. It was a match in Barry IL where single stack shooters from around the country would come to get beat by Rob Leatham. Gary pulled together a provisional division that came to be the division we have today. The first few nationals were merged with the SSC. I am pretty sure the word "Glock" was never heard during those activities. I am really not clear on what your point is but feel free to troll on...

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

 I am pretty sure the word "Glock" was never heard during those activities. I am really not clear on what your point is but feel free to troll on...

I understood his point, which is why did we need a separate 1911 division, rather than just a low-capacity division that allowed major where ANYONE could play. I think the reasonable assumption is that many people would choose to shoot 1911's, while some people would choose uglier cheaper guns of various sorts, and a few might even shoot fancy 2011's and throw their $120 magazines on the ground every 8 rounds.

Edited September 13, 2022 by motosapiens

[BritinUSA]

Didn’t IDPA have a 1911 division or something similar around the time that SSC was merged into USPSA…?

 

I seem to remember there was something driving the acquisition.

[RJH]

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I understood his point, which is why did we need a separate 1911 division, rather than just a low-capacity division that allowed major where ANYONE could play. I think the reasonable assumption is that many people would choose to shoot 1911's, while some people would choose uglier cheaper guns of various sorts, and a few might even shoot fancy 2011's and throw their $120 magazines on the ground every 8 rounds.

 

Thanks, saved me some typing 

[ChuckS]

9 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Didn’t IDPA have a 1911 division or something similar around the time that SSC was merged into USPSA…?

 

I seem to remember there was something driving the acquisition.

Gary wanted the guys with IDPA CDP gear to come in and compete as currently equipped so that flavored the initial rules.

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

99% of the officers carrying one, bought it with personal funds.  There are probably a few exceptions, but I'm not personally away of one.

 

In that situation I'm totally for it, and they guy that would choose to carry one is more likely understand what he's getting into and how to use it. The average officer is probably better off with a Glock. 

 

As long as it works like that, we'll never see many officers running Staccato's. Not many gun owners are spending 2k on a gun. And since a lot of cops aren't even gun people, I can't see many buying one as a duty gun. 

[RangerTrace]

8 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

In that situation I'm totally for it, and they guy that would choose to carry one is more likely understand what he's getting into and how to use it. The average officer is probably better off with a Glock. 

 

As long as it works like that, we'll never see many officers running Staccato's. Not many gun owners are spending 2k on a gun. And since a lot of cops aren't even gun people, I can't see many buying one as a duty gun. 

Absolutely correct.  Rangers are a little different, because traditionally they have carried 1911s since the 1930s.  That has changed a little over the years, but there is still a high percentage that carry one.  A Staccato sold us them for such a discounted price, it was a no brainer for most of them. 

[shred]

FWIW, I asked Stacatto reps if they'd been pushing for 2011's in CO.  They said no.  Seems they can sell every one they make to LEOs and assorted Timmies that will never shoot enough to wear one out, so why bother.

 

Same for lights.  I asked a rep for one of the major light companies and that rule change took them completely by surprise too. 

 

Vendors get accused of driving rule changes, but I've yet to see many real examples.  IME a lot of the time it's "maybe we can get X to sponsor if we allow their stuff...." as a justification for a rule change somebody personally wants, rather than "X says allow our stuff and we'll shower you in cash". 

 

I'd guess Springfield is going to push for 2011s into CO way more than Stacatto ever will.

 

[Bayou]

On 9/13/2022 at 8:03 AM, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm not sure I want to see local deputies carrying Staccatos. Do they really need $2,500 handguns? My taxes are high enough. I'd rather see them get a $500 gun and more training to use it. 

I'm not sure I agree with this but I'm biased. I think we deserve the best tools for the job.

[Bayou]

13 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

In that situation I'm totally for it, and they guy that would choose to carry one is more likely understand what he's getting into and how to use it. The average officer is probably better off with a Glock. 

 

As long as it works like that, we'll never see many officers running Staccato's. Not many gun owners are spending 2k on a gun. And since a lot of cops aren't even gun people, I can't see many buying one as a duty gun. 

I know plenty others that are "gun people" and I have used my own money before to add to what I carry.  I believe I know what you mean when saying "the average officer is probably better off with a glock", but I disagree and think that was poorly worded. Not getting in a pi$$ing match but when people think, oh they only need to spend this much and he doesn't need that is a bit too much. I'm assuming those that say that are not doing the job.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Bayou

[Joe4d]

On 9/13/2022 at 3:29 PM, RJH said:

So now I'm beginning to wonder back in the old days of production and single stack, what Boomer decided that the 1911 was so much better than the Glock it had to have its own division. I think that had to be where all this perceived inequity started

Think it was the other way around... the 1911's needed a protected division to be competitive. 

On 9/13/2022 at 6:35 PM, ChuckS said:

 where single stack shooters from around the country would come to get beat by Rob Leatham. 

LMAO !  Good one.