motosapiens Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said: Best thing we can do is write the AD's and tell them we're looking for a SAO option. Clearly it's on the table they just need members feedback. Stop debating here and let them know. Or we can write our AD and tell him we think it's a terrible idea and the staccato, atlas and and infinity can all suck it and just make guns for the divisions we already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 PSAC 20190707 89 shooters in 4 squads, if memory serves there were 24 on my squad PSAC 20190901 79 shooters in 4 squads, I think there were 21 in my squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 36 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said: I've shot a combined ten level II and III matches from January 2021 to now in Ohio, Michigan, Kentucky, Tennessee, and WV and not a single squad has ever had more than 15 people. i don't think i've ever shot any match with 15 person squads. I just wouldn't go to a match that had squads that size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 1 minute ago, BritinUSA said: PSAC 20190707 89 shooters in 4 squads, if memory serves there were 24 on my squad PSAC 20190901 79 shooters in 4 squads, I think there were 21 in my squad. dafuq kind of match only has 4 squads? I would leave immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 36 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said: Your USPSA presidency would have been detrimental Another one who cant resist personal insults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 Just now, motosapiens said: dafuq kind of match only has 4 squads? I would leave immediately. The range only allowed the club to use four berms. They later expanded it to five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVRSE Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 In my view the rules for uspsa are a product of reacting to developments in competitive technique and technological advancement in firearms which is not beneficial to the future at all. The rules are constantly changing because they are a reaction to shifting gun culture and tech and people are trying to fit new advancements into existing boxes. Many of the innovations that were born in competitive shooting are becoming more and more common place: - compensators? many manufacturers are now offering guns with comps out of the box - red dots? no question - flared magwells? many are adopting magwells on their carry guns now. I have zero issue with SAO guns in carry optics but it really isn't a solution; there is eventually going to be a need to overhaul the divisions given the shifting tastes and preferences of the gun community and what is in common use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, BritinUSA said: Another one who cant resist personal insults. Seems like an objective observation to me. I think you add value to some of these discussions with your background and experience, but you're completely out of touch with the sport of USPSA and the people that participate in that sport. All your ideas about CO are purely about you and your personal preferences, and not the demonstrated preferences of the membership at large. which is fine, I guess. Obviously the members that voted recognized that. Don't feel bad.... I would also be a bad president. i would require pcc to be shot in separate pcc-only matches, and I would outlaw any kind of actual prizes or prize tables for class 'performance' (other than cheap trophies for people that need that kind of participation award). And probably no one would vote for me..... Edited September 12, 2022 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, RVRSE said: I have zero issue with SAO guns in carry optics but it really isn't a solution; there is eventually going to be a need to overhaul the divisions given the shifting tastes and preferences of the gun community and what is in common use. On the one hand, I think what is 'in common use' has nothing whatsoever to do with competitive shooting (cough cough pcc and open cough cough). OTOH, i think one of the things that makes CO interesting and relevant is that the guns are largely based on actual duty/carry guns. If I see my local deputies carrying staccatos with dots, perhaps I'd be more wiling to consider allowing SAO guns in one of the divisions that is actually practical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVRSE Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, motosapiens said: On the one hand, I think what is 'in common use' has nothing whatsoever to do with competitive shooting (cough cough pcc and open cough cough). OTOH, i think one of the things that makes CO interesting and relevant is that the guns are largely based on actual duty/carry guns. If I see my local deputies carrying staccatos with dots, perhaps I'd be more wiling to consider allowing SAO guns in one of the divisions that is actually practical. The US marshals have already adopted staccatos as their service pistol and they are equipped with a DDP. Im sure there are other departments that are considering them. to think about the coming outdatedness of the uspsa ruleset consider this: if you had to create a shooting fed/league from the ground up today, what divisions would you make for it? What factors would you consider when thinking about these divisions, i'm confident many people would use common usage as some reference point to help them think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 4 minutes ago, RVRSE said: to think about the coming outdatedness of the uspsa ruleset consider this: if you had to create a shooting fed/league from the ground up today, what divisions would you make for it? one division only, singlestack 1911's, but I would allow bull barrels because I'm a modern guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 1 hour ago, BritinUSA said: Another one who cant resist personal insults. You're confusing criticism of and disagreement with your vision about what direction USPSA should take with personal insults. That's not healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 4 hours ago, RJH said: If the whole point is that a 2011 gives too big of an advantage to let it in a division, but then someone proves multiple times that you don't have to have a 2011 to win that division, the point is kind of stupid and based in emotion and not fact. unfortunately people are stupid and emotional and will react accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 1 hour ago, motosapiens said: i don't think i've ever shot any match with 15 person squads. Well the population of your entire state is only 500K more than the population of the county which holds my state's capital city. So there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 1 hour ago, motosapiens said: dafuq kind of match only has 4 squads? I would leave immediately. A club match, maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 Attitude is showing tonight boys. Please tone it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHicks Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 I can't imagine shooting a USPSA match with 89 shooters and only 4 bays/squads. We have a couple of local clubs that only have 3 bays each. We reset each stage to shoot 6 stages including a classifier. At one of them in past years we occasionally got into the 50s attendance wise. But now 30 would be a good sized match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 We run 5 stages a month with an average of 70+ shooters a month. That's around 5 squads of 14ish+. When it's hot I try to only run stages that are quick to shoot and reset so we can get to beer and wings by 2! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, Sarge said: We run 5 stages a month with an average of 70+ shooters a month. That's around 5 squads of 14ish+. When it's hot I try to only run stages that are quick to shoot and reset so we can get to beer and wings by 2! @motosapiens you should catch a flight to Cincinnati before too long. This is always a fun match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 @RangerTrace Weren't Staccatos allowed for the Rangers? I am thinking they were, but figure I would go to the source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 35 minutes ago, RJH said: @RangerTrace Weren't Staccatos allowed for the Rangers? I am thinking they were, but figure I would go to the source Yes sir. And DPS SWAT. Other than over insertion of mags on a slide lock reload, I've not heard of any major issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 13 hours ago, motosapiens said: If I see my local deputies carrying staccatos with dots, perhaps I'd be more wiling to consider allowing SAO guns in one of the divisions that is actually practical. I'm not sure I want to see local deputies carrying Staccatos. Do they really need $2,500 handguns? My taxes are high enough. I'd rather see them get a $500 gun and more training to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 12 hours ago, MikeBurgess said: unfortunately people are stupid and emotional and will react accordingly. Ding Ding Ding,,, we have a winner. That is probably the entire gist of the last 29 pages. Alot of people THINK a SA is better despite overwhelming evidence and much butthurt will be had if they are allowed in production or CO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 14 hours ago, Boomstick303 said: I think we can all agree somewhat that all the bells and whistles of 2011/1911 designs and what competitive shooters do to plastic guns are crutches for average/marginal shooters. These things might give a marginal shooter a small gain, that will quickly top out when it comes to performing better and placing any higher at any given match. It will always come back to proper training and a dedication to that training that few posses to be the Nils of the world. I basically agree with this and it's kind of my point. Average/marginal shooters can shoot better with the crutches that come with fancy guns. The vast majority of our shooters are average and marginal. My concern is while I can tell new shooters or these average/marginal shooters they don't need a fancy gun to be competitive. But, will they believe me? Like deep down really believe that? Especially if they shoot one. If they know the gun someone else is using is easier to shoot they're going to feel out gunned. They'll likely feel like they need that gun or tell themselves i's the gun to protect their self image. Because some of it is ego, human nature is to think it's not us it's clearly it's equipment. I think I like the idea of a production based division because it takes that element out of it some. Hell, do I even believe it deep down myself? I think I shoot my 2011's a little better. If I shot my 2011 could I maybe mask a couple mistakes in a 20 stage nationals match? Could I gain 1%? That doesn't seem crazy and that 1% at nationals can be 6-12 places. As much as it costs to go to nationals why not take every possible advantage I can get. I have to assume all my competition will. So why would I leave my 2011 in the safe and take my DA/SA gun? I am torn on the subject a little. Part of me is like screw it give me a place to shoot the 2011's TBH. You guys are wearing me down lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: Hell, do I even believe it deep down myself? I think I shoot my 2011's a little better. If I shot my 2011 could I maybe mask a couple mistakes in a 20 stage nationals match? Could I gain 1%? That doesn't seem crazy and that 1% at nationals can be 6-12 places. As much as it costs to go to nationals why not take every possible advantage I can get. I have to assume all my competition will. So why would I leave my 2011 in the safe and take my DA/SA gun? perhaps because 2011s require more care and feeding to run reliably? how many places is one malfunction going to cost you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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