2011 and Carry optics

[motosapiens]

6 minutes ago, Gcarr said:

So … they created a class … called CO. People liked it… they tweaked the rules… more people liked it… they tweaked it some more … even more people liked it. 
 

some of the people that were drawn to it and changed what they had been shooting to shoot it… where’s the problem? 

oh … wait … some people are mad that to many people liked it? 
 

I say they need to tweak the classes that people left… maybe some will come back

 

 

exactly. the solution to this 'problem' is not to make CO suck more so that fewer people will enjoy it.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

10 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

Wouldn't just having Open, or maybe Open major and Open minor be better then? That way we can really go with what every the new innovations are that progress our shooting. 

 

While some debate whether compensators, frame mounted optics, magwells, and uber light single action triggers (I haven't felt a SFA trigger as good as a Phoenix Trinity yet YMMV) make no difference it's just as easy to argue that they do.

 

CO is supposed to be something that is differentiated enough from Open to matter, just like Production is supposed to be differentiated enough from limited to stand alone.  CO started as Production with a dot and it still really is, as many of the CO changes of the last few years apply to Production too.  Those changes have closed the gap between CO/P and O/L a little (and I don't like it) but the gap is still measurable.

 

It should stay that way.

[BritinUSA]

20 minutes ago, Gcarr said:

oh … wait … some people are mad that to many people liked it? 

No, people got mad because they ruined the original concept of the division.

 

The rule changes appealed to the new shooter who did not want to change any of their gear in order to compete. 
 

It appealed to the participant who just wants to have fun at the range instead of learning how to do mag changes and plan stages around them.
 

It appealed to the vendors who would sell more stuff and then sponsor Nationals in return for the increased sales.

 

And one more thing; it’s a DIVISION not a CLASS

[motosapiens]

gosh darn them for making the division more appealing. Next thing you know people will enjoy USPSA matches instead of being miserable and crying about it on the internet.

[Gcarr]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

No, people got mad because they ruined the original concept of the division.

 

The rule changes appealed to the new shooter who did not want to change any of their gear in order to compete. 
 

It appealed to the participant who just wants to have fun at the range instead of learning how to do mag changes and plan stages around them.
 

It appealed to the vendors who would sell more stuff and then sponsor Nationals in return for the increased sales.

 

And one more thing; it’s a DIVISION not a CLASS

 

A) Sorry they ruined it for some, but sure seems a lot of shooters like it.

B)So the rule changes attracted new shooters… sounds good for the sport 

C) what’s wrong with wanting to have fun? If a shooter doesn’t want to learn to mag changes… I guess they are content placing lower in the ranking. That should make some happier that they will place higher. Same goes for stage planning …

D) So it encouraged manufacturers create new products and sponsor the sport. That’s great for all shooters

E) ooops… excuse me … division 

 

All in all … it’s perspective. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

No, people got mad because they ruined the original concept of the division.

 

The rule changes appealed to the new shooter who did not want to change any of their gear in order to compete. 
 

It appealed to the participant who just wants to have fun at the range instead of learning how to do mag changes and plan stages around them.
 

It appealed to the vendors who would sell more stuff and then sponsor Nationals in return for the increased sales.

 

 

It also appealed to a large number of people who are both serious about being competitive and serious about the martial use of handguns.

[Dr_Z]

On 6/20/2022 at 3:46 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

I do think the better you are the less things like weight and trigger pull will effect your game. 

 

I'm not the greatest, but I certainly can shoot a 45 oz CZ with a 2 lbs trigger better than I can a 25 oz plastic gun with a 4 lbs trigger. You have to work harder shooting the lighter gun, and when you do make a mistake it tends to hurt more. 

 

The local hotshot in CO switched to a glock over the winter, normally he shoots a CZ with brass grips. CZ reliability issues cost him several majors last year.  I shot a club match with him the day before we shot our sectional and he was running his CZ. He said after shooting the glock for a while and picking up the CZ again it was just so much better that it was worth the risk. He won the sectional the next day. I'd be if I asked him he say he wouldn't of won with the glock. Coa was only one point behind him. So if that gun even made .05% difference in his shooting it saved his match. 

Was that Matt you were talking about?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

5 hours ago, Dr_Z said:

Was that Matt you were talking about?

Sounds like it

[Racinready300ex]

9 hours ago, Dr_Z said:

Was that Matt you were talking about?

 

I put enough hints I guess lol. 

[Nathanb]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I put enough hints I guess lol. 

He gets around.  I knew who you were talking about and I’m nowhere near you but have shot with him. Lol

[GigG]

17 hours ago, Gcarr said:

So … they created a class … called CO. People liked it… they tweaked the rules… more people liked it… they tweaked it some more … even more people liked it. 
 

some of the people that were drawn to it and changed what they had been shooting to shoot it… where’s the problem? 

oh … wait … some people are mad that to many people liked it? 
 

I say they need to tweak the classes that people left… maybe some will come back

 

 

 

VERY WELL SAID!!!!

[Racinready300ex]

17 hours ago, Gcarr said:

 

I say they need to tweak the classes that people left… maybe some will come back

 

 

I'm not sure even this is the right move or not. At least not with out first setting a goal. Is the goal to have a certain number of divisions all with about equal participation? 

 

To tweak the divisions to pull back CO shooters will mean slowly adjusting the rules over a few years trying to see what works. This will mean constantly changing the rules. And if it works too well, we'll have to come back and start tweaking CO again in order to boost it's low numbers. It seems like it could turn into a cycle that never ends, and the lack of rules stability might turn some off all together. 

[Boomstick303]

Keep ignoring the technology and availability of that tech that has made CO so popular.  What tech other than increasing mag capacity for production is going to "save it"?  Increasing Mag capacity might keep a few production shooters in Production and allow new shooters to fill up there mags and shoot Production instead of Limited.  But how much is that really going to increase production numbers over the long term?

 

Why would an organization tweak a rule set that could possibly diminish the most popular division to "have equal participation" in other divisions? 

 

This conversation is becoming dumber and dumber by the second.  Why are we trying to save divisions that have had almost zero rule changes to drive people away from those divisions yet those divisions are dying due to technology advances in firearms.  And for what?  To placate 1-5% of the shooters in the sport?  It makes zero sense.  

 

Keep beating this dead horse.......

 

Its never getting up.

[Bagellord]

I still say we need to freeze equipment changes for at least two years. We've had enough changes recently, things need to stabilize and then we can see if changes NEED to be made.

[Racinready300ex]

22 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

Keep ignoring the technology and availability of that tech that has made CO so popular.  What tech other than increasing mag capacity for production is going to "save it"?  Increasing Mag capacity might keep a few production shooters in Production and allow new shooters to fill up there mags and shoot Production instead of Limited.  But how much is that really going to increase production numbers over the long term?

 

Why would an organization tweak a rule set that could possibly diminish the most popular division to "have equal participation" in other divisions? 

 

This conversation is becoming dumber and dumber by the second.  Why are we trying to save divisions that have had almost zero rule changes to drive people away from those divisions yet those divisions are dying due to technology advances in firearms.  And for what?  To placate 1-5% of the shooters in the sport?  It makes zero sense.  

 

Keep beating this dead horse.......

 

Its never getting up.

 

That's what I was getting at. We keep talking about changes to "save" divisions. If we save a division all that means is we pulled shooters from another division. So I can only assume the goal must be some kind of balance between the divisions. Which to me seems dumb, and probably impossible to pull off anyway. 

[Sinister4]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

That's what I was getting at. We keep talking about changes to "save" divisions. If we save a division all that means is we pulled shooters from another division. So I can only assume the goal must be some kind of balance between the divisions. Which to me seems dumb, and probably impossible to pull off anyway. 

Be interesting if there was a way to see how many shooters came into the sport and shot nothing but carry optics, ie how many switched and how many always shot CO

[Nathanb]

16 minutes ago, Sinister4 said:

Be interesting if there was a way to see how many shooters came into the sport and shot nothing but carry optics, ie how many switched and how many always shot CO

The data is there if uspsa would actually care about analytics 

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, Sinister4 said:

Be interesting if there was a way to see how many shooters came into the sport and shot nothing but carry optics, ie how many switched and how many always shot CO

 

Locally I see a mix of long time shooters that have moved to CO and new shooters coming in deciding to go to CO. When I started my local club had a good mix of Prod, Open, and LTD . Now CO is more than 50% of the shooters now. Not really a bad thing, I guess unless you want to shoot one of the other divisions. lol. 

[GigG]

OK, old guy going to toss my $0.02 in.

 

I can remember when pretty much everyone was shooting a 1911 with a comp. Shortly after almost everyone was shooting the same 1911 with a comp and a ProPoint attached.  Then came CM high cap gun.  Within months hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of guns became extinct. Never once did I hear anyone say we needed a "classic open" or a "non-optic open" divisions.

 

Of course we didn't have much of an internet then either. As an older shooter whose eyes weren't what they once were I can tell you I'd likely not be back if it weren't for CO as it is now.

[Cuz]

On 6/23/2022 at 10:06 AM, Bagellord said:

I still say we need to freeze equipment changes for at least two years. We've had enough changes recently, things need to stabilize and then we can see if changes NEED to be made.

This is not a bad idea. It takes time to evaluate the current set of rules. 

[OPENB]

I started with a 1911 .45 in 1995. Limited had just started, and soon after Robbie won Ltd. Nationals with a Springfield 1911 and 10rd. Wilson mags. I then got an STI in .40 and 18rd. mags. I could still see iron sights, and made A. I got my first open gun in 2003, it's still in the safe. When CO started with 10rd. mags, I got in the ground floor with a Tanfo Ltd. Pro and a dovetail mount. Hardly anyone was shooting CO. But, Production was well represented at matches still. When the CO mag limited went up, it exploded around here. I'd guess 75% of our local matches is CO.  Production is all but dead. I think the only thing that will keep it from ending up like Revo, SS, and Ltd. 10 is bumping the mag cap to 15. But does it really need saved? People want to shoot what they want, not counting people that shop divisions to hide from the heat.

 

I love CO. Minor scoring forces accuracy, the dot fosters speed. The capacity makes it about shooting, not reloading every 3 steps. The 9mm minor is easier on guns, cheap to reload, or factory ammo is readily available again. You can get a very competitive gun with a Canik or Glock, or spend Ltd. gun money on a trick Shadow 2. It checks all the boxes that make the sport fun. If they made 2011's CO legal, I'd do it cause I have one, but I'd still get beat by the same guys beating me now. 

[Itgma]

I shot a few matches almost 8 years ago and just got back into it because CO looked fun as hell. I saw Humble Marksman videos and discovered a division which gave me what I feel like is the fun of open yet something I can afford. Adding 2011s won't change where I'm at as a shooter, totally get that (thanks GM26) but I don't know if I would have gotten back into it if I felt like I needed a expensive 2011. 

 

But I'm already saving for two open guns and a reloading set up. In for a $25 membership fee in for a dime:)

[-JCN-]

On 6/21/2022 at 7:03 AM, zombywoof said:

Then how is CO the most popular division in a capacity restricted state?

 

It's the dot.

 

On 6/21/2022 at 12:30 PM, BritinUSA said:

Not provable at this point.There is no control group. The division may have taken off with 10 or 15 rounds. It’s just speculation.

 

Now if IPSC Production Optics takes off in a big way (top four divisions) then it will disprove your theory as the mag capacity is set at 15.
 

If Production Optics does not become one of the top four divisions in IPSC then it would indicate that your theory may be correct.

One thing to consider is equitable parity. 
 

That it’s not only the division rules, but how they compare to what others in your region are shooting. 
 

IMO, when CO started part of the draw was for dots itself but going hi cap meant it wasn’t at much of a disadvantage to Open and PCC on a field course with regard to stage planning and execution. 
 

So all of a sudden on modern 28 round field courses, you could sort of hang with your friends in other divisions. 
 

That for a lot of people is “fun.”

 

In IPSC with more short courses, maybe not as much of a motivation? I don’t know. 
 

Currently (also IMO), now that CO has reached critical mass… now people have enough competition in division locally that comparisons to other divisions are less important. 
 

I think that 141mm production would help increase participation in division, but the purists would bitterly complain. 
 

Cutting off the nose to spite the face isn’t a great strategy. 
 

Some people want to resist all change, but it’s inevitable in a sport like this. 
 

When you talk about “provable” and control groups, you’re going about it backwards. 
 

You test a hypothesis in this case to try and come up with the reason behind the growth. 
 

But you don’t need to do that experiment. You can just ask people directly instead of trying to glean their motivation secondarily. 
 

People like CO because:

dots

can be relatively simple

don’t have to reload

still allows some personalization 

high cap parity with others

popular

potential self defense applicability

choices for similar manual of arms to their carry guns

 

As carry guns come more and more standard with dots, production will continue to wither away like iron sight rifle divisions. 
 

All JMO. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by -JCN-

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, -JCN- said:

 

People like CO because:

dots

can be relatively simple

don’t have to reload

still allows some personalization 

high cap parity with others

popular

potential self defense applicability

choices for similar manual of arms to their carry guns

 

 

For me, this list pretty much explains the whole draw of CO. I personally don't care that much about the reload thing, but I know some people do, and it certainly doesn't hurt my feelings to reload less, lol.

[theroryshow]

People are pretty good about telling you what they want by their actions. Everyone going to CO, it probably because shooting optics are fun and you don't have to reload as much. You are not going to add optics to production but you can increase the rounds. Just let people use 140mm mags (which most get from the factory) and have fun. The point of all of this is to make it easy and fun to participate. Anytime you are doing something that do not meet those goals then it should be examined.