2011 and Carry optics

[BritinUSA]

I think some of the capacity rules are okay. Leave Limited and Open as Hi-Capacity.

 

Leave Single-Stack as Major-8/Minor-10.
 

Change Production and CO back to the original ruleset, but with 15-rounds. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

12 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

It seems that USPSA, Is handing out the new Divisions, the way the world is handing out participation trophies.lol

 

Ummm.......no

[Johnny_Chimpo]

9 hours ago, cbrussell said:

I think all guns should be limited to 10 rounds. Then redo the Divisions. Sure would be interesting to see how everything shakes out. Always wondered which modifications make the most difference. Compensators, red dots etc. 

 

IDPA is for you then.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

7 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Change Production and CO back to the original ruleset, but with 15-rounds. 

 

LOL not gonna happen

Edited May 18, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Thomas H]

11 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Change Production and CO back to the original ruleset, but with 15-rounds. 

 

It is always interesting to me to see how many people want to blithely change something that is currently extremely popular, without having any actual basis to believe that their change will be beneficial or even wanted in the first place.

 

Similar to all the commentary about new divisions and such being bad, when we can literally see that many people are enjoying the new divisions, and it isn't hurting the sport.  (Other divisions may be reduced here and there, but since those people aren't leaving the sport, they are literally shooting a different division because they are enjoying it, that doesn't hurt the sport.)

 

Mostly, it just seems that many people 1) don't want other people to have fun in ways they don't approve, and 2) they want things to change to match their opinions even though they can't actual justify any of that with logical reasons for anyone else to want those changes.

 

Every time we get a new one of these types of threads, we again see the same old things.

[Boomstick303]

11 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Change Production and CO back to the original ruleset, but with 15-rounds. 

 

For what reason?  

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

For what reason?  

 

I'll go out on a limb and guess the same reason people want SAO-CO. He thinks it would be better that way. 

 

That's the issue with this subject isn't it? 

 

[Nathanb]

If only hq had a way to poll the user base to see if this is actually wants. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

It is always interesting to me to see how many people want to blithely change something that is currently extremely popular, without having any actual basis to believe that their change will be beneficial or even wanted in the first place.

 

Similar to all the commentary about new divisions and such being bad, when we can literally see that many people are enjoying the new divisions, and it isn't hurting the sport.  (Other divisions may be reduced here and there, but since those people aren't leaving the sport, they are literally shooting a different division because they are enjoying it, that doesn't hurt the sport.)

 

Mostly, it just seems that many people 1) don't want other people to have fun in ways they don't approve, and 2) they want things to change to match their opinions even though they can't actual justify any of that with logical reasons for anyone else to want those changes.

 

Every time we get a new one of these types of threads, we again see the same old things.

 

That applies to both sides of this debate really.

 

The only part we can't really be sure about is we are loosing members. The sport is always loosing members we just hope we're gaining more new members than we are loosing old members. It would be interesting if we sent exit survey's to members when they let their membership expire to get a better view of why people are leaving.

 

I'd imagine the current issue is cost and ammo availability. But we'll never know if we don't ask. 

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

He thinks it would be better that way. 

 

Again in what way? I would think there is a reason that shapes that opinion.  

 

Carry Optics exploded once the mag rule when to 140mm. 

 

So change it back for what reason?  More participation?  "Competitive equality"?  If we allow SAO guns only if we reduce mag capacity to 15 rounds?  

 

To @Thomas H's point.  Lets take something that works perfectly fine and change it for what reason?

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

It would be interesting if we sent exit survey's to members when they let their membership expire to get a better view of why people are leaving.

 

I would think this would be a priority but alas I do not see it ever being implemented. 

 

Maybe their thought process is, "How many would answer"?  Typically when people are done with a hobby they are done.  I would think getting someone to answer a survey after they "Quit" anything would work all that well.

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I would think this would be a priority but alas I do not see it ever being implemented. 

 

Maybe their thought process is, "How many would answer"?  Typically when people are done with a hobby they are done.  I would think getting someone to answer a survey after they "Quit" anything would work all that well.

 

One of those we wont know unless we try, things. 

 

I'd guess people that have just moved on would be the ones to not answer, the ones with issues would be the ones to reply. Those are the ones you want to hear from anyway. Someone can drop there membership and still be playing the game at the club level and maybe just not see value in the membership anymore. 

 

The only value I get from being a member is shooting a few majors a year. If I stop shooting majors I'd see no reason to be a member just to shoot club matches. 

[usmc1974]

13 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

I think some of the capacity rules are okay. Leave Limited and Open as Hi-Capacity.

 

Leave Single-Stack as Major-8/Minor-10.
 

Change Production and CO back to the original ruleset, but with 15-rounds. 

I don't know what the original rules was, for carry optics.  But, I do think you are correct, that 15 rounds, should be the allowed in any division in USPSA, With the exception of single stack. I just bought 2 new glock 19's and they came from the factory with 15 round magazines. This is no reason that production should be limited to 10. JMHO

[MikeBurgess]

15 hours ago, cbrussell said:

I think all guns should be limited to 10 rounds. Then redo the Divisions. Sure would be interesting to see how everything shakes out. Always wondered which modifications make the most difference. Compensators, red dots etc. 

I would rank it something like this. 

 

Not a Revolver

Optics

Capacity >10

Capacity >18

Major Scoring

Capacity >25

Magwell

Compensators

SAO Trigger

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cbrussell]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I would rank it something like this. 

 

Not a Revolver

Optics

Capacity >10

Capacity >18

Major Scoring

Capacity >25

Magwell

Compensators

SAO Trigger

 

 

Interesting. Not withstanding capacity, agree that optics has the greatest impact followed by compensators. SAO trigger would be last on my list as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[deerslayer]

I’ll go out on a limb and say I wish CO was 15 rounds.  First, it would be a unique capacity with a stage plan sometimes unlike any other division.  Second, it MIGHT reduce the number of CO shooters (although I doubt significantly).  Why could this be a good thing?  If people left CO for another division (as opposed to leaving USPSA), it might restore some needed balance to the divisions.  I don’t feel like going to a match and seeing more than half the participants shooting in one division is healthy.  Sure, CO has been successful, but has CO made USPSA more successful?  I don’t know or have the data to decide.  Someone above said shooters are just switching divisions.  But when one division gets massive transfers from other divisions and the other divisions suffer, we get conversations about combining or eliminating those divisions, and I don’t think this benefits USPSA.  

[BritinUSA]

I agree with what you are saying especially about the balance of the divisions. I’ve been saying it for months. Sadly, the short-sighted majority will not see how bad this is for the future of the sport. 

[deerslayer]

The Production purists will probably throw rocks at me, but I also think USPSA would benefit if Production went to 15.  More people would shoot it, a dying division might be saved, the new guy or casual competitor would have a good place for their Glock 17, and CO numbers may fall a bit.  All this would be good for USPSA.  

Edited May 18, 2022 by deerslayer

[Dazhi]

CO 140mm is popular, but does it mean it's a "good" division. 

I can make a even more popular division than CO, e.g. a 140mm minor iron division, limited rule set, but it will be a "bad" division.   "Good/bad" is in terms of "having its own purposes" and carnivalizing/bleeding into other divisions.

 

CO going back to 15-round does not mean you have to ditch your 140mm mags.  You just have to load them to 15.  If each division has its own soul, CO is the 2nd most soul-less division in USPSA, right after limited 10.  IPSC gets it right with "Production Optics" IMO.  

[ddc]

11 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

CO going back to 15-round does not mean you have to ditch your 140mm mags.  You just have to load them to 15.

 

ummmm, what?

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

I agree with what you are saying especially about the balance of the divisions.  Sadly, the short-sighted majority will not see how bad this is for the future of the sport. 

 

No one is forcing people into CO and out of other divisions.

 

You are seeing member feedback in real time.  You just seem to be unable to handle the fact that hardly anyone agrees with you.

 

The overwhelming majority of new shooters that I have seen in my area come to their first match with a service pistol that has a slide-mounted optic on it, and a good portion of them already have extensions on their magazines.  Some of them have magwells and they're promptly taken off when told it moves them to open.

 

None of those guys who arrive with optic-equipped service pistols give a s#!t about production, limited, or revolver.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Johnny_Chimpo]

19 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

CO 140mm is popular, but does it mean it's a "good" division. 

I can make a even more popular division than CO, e.g. a 140mm minor iron division, limited rule set, but it will be a "bad" division.   "Good/bad" is in terms of "having its own purposes" and carnivalizing/bleeding into other divisions.

 

CO going back to 15-round does not mean you have to ditch your 140mm mags.  You just have to load them to 15.  If each division has its own soul, CO is the 2nd most soul-less division in USPSA, right after limited 10.  IPSC gets it right with "Production Optics" IMO.  

 

Can you define what a good division is?

 

Or, since you brought up purpose, what in your mind is the purpose of each division.

 

[deerslayer]

9 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

ummmm, what?

 

I think he means nobody’s gear would become obsolete, unlike several other proposed new divisions or changes.  Some might even still prefer basepads.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, deerslayer said:

I’ll go out on a limb and say I wish CO was 15 rounds.  First, it would be a unique capacity with a stage plan sometimes unlike any other division.  Second, it MIGHT reduce the number of CO shooters (although I doubt significantly).  Why could this be a good thing?  If people left CO for another division (as opposed to leaving USPSA), it might restore some needed balance to the divisions.  I don’t feel like going to a match and seeing more than half the participants shooting in one division is healthy.  Sure, CO has been successful, but has CO made USPSA more successful?  I don’t know or have the data to decide.  Someone above said shooters are just switching divisions.  But when one division gets massive transfers from other divisions and the other divisions suffer, we get conversations about combining or eliminating those divisions, and I don’t think this benefits USPSA.  

 

This is all over the place.

 

Why is balance between participation in divisions necessary?

 

What makes you think people who like CO for what it is now will shrug their shoulders and move on to some other unappealing division when what they like about CO is ruined?  I think it's more likely they'll say f*#k it I'll go do something else fun with my time and money.

 

I can tell you for a fact that no matter what you do to Production, I'm not going back to it.  Nor am I moving to any iron sighted division nor to optics one where guns cost more than some of my rifles.  And I have some damned nice rifles.

 

You wonder if CO's success translates into success for the organization.  Well, define your idea of "success for USPSA" first.

 

Forcing people into things they do not want to do is only going to piss them off.  Instead of screwing up the most popular division in USPSA, go figure out why the other ones are not popular.  And I go back full circle to the original question: why should all divisions have roughly equal participation?

Edited May 18, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Boomstick303]

This horse can get beat forever but its not going to increase participation in Production, Revo and Single Stack.  What does it matter if CO is limited to 15 rounds or based on 140 mm mags?  Optics on pistols is becoming main stream, and is here to stay.  Just about nobody wants to shoot partially filled mags.  Magazine capacity seems to be increasing not decreasing for all manufacturers as far as compact and larger guns go.  I do not understand how using 140 mm mags makes a division, a division that does not have a soul, or a division that is not "good".

 

I find it hilarious that anyone thinks the increased mag capacity and red dots are killing Production, Revo, and Single Stack.  As technology progresses relics of the past die.  Advances of technology and the adoption of one particular caliber over all other calibers have a greater affect on division participation more than a mag capacity of just one division.  If you killed CO today is that going to bring back attendance to those divisions?  I highly doubt it.  No one is rushing out to buy Revos and Single Stack guns to replace their CO rigs.  Production might see a slight bump in numbers, but that division is on its way out as well.  

 

As for switching Production to 15 rounds, that is long overdue.  I highly doubt it will help participation in Production, but how about we allow people to fill up the mags for the guns they buy instead of restricting them.  In our area, new people showing up to the match are not shooting production.  Just dinosaurs who have been shooting it forever are shooting it.  

Edited May 18, 2022 by Boomstick303