Match fee affecting attendance?

[rustychev]

11 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

What you fail to understand is that the consumer doesn't give a s#!t about your costs.  The consumer sets the price.  If they see your price higher than what they have set, you don't get their money.

How many matches have you run out of curiosity.  I only ask because there are both short and long term coats of running a match.

 

Short are

USPSA activity fees

Range usage fees

Targets

Pastor

Paint

Long are

Tools

Props

Steel 

Timer

Scoring pads

 

All that stuff adds up and sets a floor. Over 11 leave matches last year with out any major long term buys. (3 new timers is all) my net was less than 1000.00 to the club after costs.  That does not by much long term when you look at what Evey thing costs from steel to wood and all the other stuff it takes to keep a match going month to month.  It amazing how fast stuff gets broken to.

[Jollymon32]

12 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

What you fail to understand is that the consumer doesn't give a s#!t about your costs.  The consumer sets the price.  If they see your price higher than what they have set, you don't get their money.

Crass, but spot on.

 

And the underlying reason for this topic.  The price ‘they have set’ may have moved downward.  This will require MD’s to work creatively on getting the consumer to elevate their ‘set price’ point.  Just relying on the argument that ‘costs are high’ to move the consumer’s price point will not be effective if the supply of cheap, 9 stage, L1 matches is plentiful.  In this environment, differentiation and raising the value proposition will be required to drive attendance.  Obviously, value increases when price is lowered, but there are other ways of increasing the  consumer’s perception of value so as to justify a higher price.  This where the MD’s need to get creative.

 

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, rustychev said:

How many matches have you run out of curiosity.  I only ask because there are both short and long term coats of running a match.

 

Short are

USPSA activity fees

Range usage fees

Targets

Pastor

Paint

Long are

Tools

Props

Steel 

Timer

Scoring pads

 

All that stuff adds up and sets a floor. Over 11 leave matches last year with out any major long term buys. (3 new timers is all) my net was less than 1000.00 to the club after costs.  That does not by much long term when you look at what Evey thing costs from steel to wood and all the other stuff it takes to keep a match going month to month.  It amazing how fast stuff gets broken to.

 

I haven't run any matches.  Just like I've never operated a car making company.  But I know what I will and will not pay for each of their products.

 

What happens when a good or service that you are used to buying continues to go up in price?

 

Do you negotiate a lower price?  Do you take your money somewhere else?

 

Or do you just accept the sob story from the seller and hand over your cash?

 

The buyer sets the price.  That is the point.  You can try explaining why your can't meet the buyers' expectations and hope they feel sorry for you.  Or you can adjust your model to make your price acceptable to the buyers.

 

The failure to understand at a basic level how pricing works is one of the main reasons so many fail at business.

Edited February 23, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[Balakay]

3 hours ago, Brooke said:

 

nice attitude dude. If groups can't pay costs they won't have matches. Is that concept difficult?

Attitude issues aside, the OPs premise is valid. I  suspect that the OP takes issue with the large number of L2 matches that really offer little more than a local match with the possibility of getting a plaque and a pulled pork sandwich.

 

I understand all of the expenses involved in running a Major match.  However, when shooters have excellent local matches with reasonable competition for ~10% of the cost of a Major, it poses a problem for many.  I like competing against the best and relish the chance to win a Taurus  or 50$ certificate for coated bullets as much as anyone.  

 

The cost of matches should be solely driven by the free market.  If attendance falls due to high prices, MDs can either cut the price, cut back on amenities to staff and shooters, or cancel the match.  MDs need to make a certain profit.  No one should expect a L2 match to be done pro bono. 

 

IMO, I would have no problem with less major matches being offered: Maybe  State or Sectional,   Area and Nationals. Set the price at a level that allows quality ROs, good stages and no pasting  for the shooters. If it costs 50% more than the current prices, so be it.  I would still spend less on my major match budget than what I am doing currently. Make the matches worthy of being called a "Major". 

 

 

[SGT_Schultz]

Just now, Balakay said:

Attitude issues aside

 

There's zero attitude on my part. 

 

I explained, as simply as I can the reality of who sets the price for a good or service.

 

So many people just can't grasp the simple fact that they can't just charge whatever they think they should with no adjustment from the buyers' side. 

[Balakay]

20 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

There's zero attitude on my part. 

 

I explained, as simply as I can the reality of who sets the price for a good or service.

 

So many people just can't grasp the simple fact that they can't just charge whatever they think they should with no adjustment from the buyers' side. 

I don’t care one iota about attitude with regard to this topic. I think we are on the same page regarding the economics of level 2  matches

[RadarTech]

 
The cost of matches should be solely driven by the free market.  If attendance falls due to high prices, MDs can either cut the price, cut back on amenities to staff and shooters, or cancel the match.  MDs need to make a certain profit.  No one should expect a L2 match to be done pro bono. 
 
IMO, I would have no problem with less major matches being offered: Maybe  State or Sectional,   Area and Nationals. Set the price at a level that allows quality ROs, good stages and no pasting  for the shooters.
 

I see some valid points here I’d like to see discussed:

1. Should staff at a major pay more than a competitor to “volunteer” to work the match?

2. Do you have an acceptable loss amount for a staff member to work a match? $200? $300? I feel the days of lunch, a match fee, shirt and free brass succeeding in attracting good staff as over or pretty close to it for many matches.. I know a few places where anything but a roach motel will cost $200 plus a night. Even spitting a room would still be high for a 3 day match...

3. I’ve worked many majors, and seen MDs come out of pocket to hold the match- even losing money in some cases— what would you accept as an acceptable amount of profit for the MD? A per shooter $(like most matches pay a range)? Or a percentage of the match income?

In the end, no one is making a fortune running matches, many hope to just break even or make a couple grand..
if you own the range and are running the match that changes some.

Most matches pay the range $10-15 per shooter and then often cover a prop fee on top of that. So a 200 shooter match might pay $3k for the shooters and another $2 or $3k for props...
if you are charging $150 for a match and NOT using credit cards- $30k - $6k (range fee) - ~$600 for USPSA activity fee. -$2k for Targets pasters and paint and target sticks
$22k left for the following
Water and ice, portajohns, staff lunches, staff hotel? Or stipend, golf cart(s) and expenses thereof, prize table-(not all prizes are given free- some are buy 2 get 1 free, some are at high discount- IE Guns) Chronos? Extra timers,tables, and damage replacement, shirts for staff- cotton? Maybe $1000, techwear? Maybe $3k or more...
shirt for competitor?

Some things like a meal vendor require a guaranteed amount of revenue to come— say $2500.. if staff lunches don’t cover that, the match makes up the difference.

Some prices are low— so that $22k drops to less than $5k quick..

Anyway. All this to say a high match fee may just reflect the costs of the area... or at least part of it..

And those costs may be part and parcel of getting staff... remember those hotel rates?

I’m not defending— just -an attempt at explaining...

[Balakay]

11 hours ago, RadarTech said:

 

I see some valid points here I’d like to see discussed:

1. Should staff at a major pay more than a competitor to “volunteer” to work the match?

2. Do you have an acceptable loss amount for a staff member to work a match? $200? $300? I feel the days of lunch, a match fee, shirt and free brass succeeding in attracting good staff as over or pretty close to it for many matches.. I know a few places where anything but a roach motel will cost $200 plus a night. Even spitting a room would still be high for a 3 day match...

3. I’ve worked many majors, and seen MDs come out of pocket to hold the match- even losing money in some cases— what would you accept as an acceptable amount of profit for the MD? A per shooter $(like most matches pay a range)? Or a percentage of the match income?

In the end, no one is making a fortune running matches, many hope to just break even or make a couple grand..
if you own the range and are running the match that changes some.

Most matches pay the range $10-15 per shooter and then often cover a prop fee on top of that. So a 200 shooter match might pay $3k for the shooters and another $2 or $3k for props...
if you are charging $150 for a match and NOT using credit cards- $30k - $6k (range fee) - ~$600 for USPSA activity fee. -$2k for Targets pasters and paint and target sticks
$22k left for the following
Water and ice, portajohns, staff lunches, staff hotel? Or stipend, golf cart(s) and expenses thereof, prize table-(not all prizes are given free- some are buy 2 get 1 free, some are at high discount- IE Guns) Chronos? Extra timers,tables, and damage replacement, shirts for staff- cotton? Maybe $1000, techwear? Maybe $3k or more...
shirt for competitor?

Some things like a meal vendor require a guaranteed amount of revenue to come— say $2500.. if staff lunches don’t cover that, the match makes up the difference.

Some prices are low— so that $22k drops to less than $5k quick..

Anyway. All this to say a high match fee may just reflect the costs of the area... or at least part of it..

And those costs may be part and parcel of getting staff... remember those hotel rates?

I’m not defending— just -an attempt at explaining...
 

 

1.  Absolutely not

2.  Zero

3.  Not sure

 

I hear what you are saying...If all parties involved (shooters, staff and match directors) feel as if they are not getting adequate value or compensation, what does the future hold for major matches in the absence of corporate sponsorship??  Prognosis: negative

Edited February 24, 2020 by Balakay

[RadarTech]

1.  Absolutely not
2.  Zero
3.  Not sure
 
I hear what you are saying...If all parties involved (shooters, staff and match directors) feel as if they are not getting adequate value or compensation, what does the future hold major matches in the absence of corporate sponsorship??  Prognosis: negative

Here is what I would recommend to all that have an issue with major match fees versus local matches—

When you shoot a major and see an RO you know— ask them — how much does it cost you over what the match covers does it cost you to come and work this match?

At a local— you don’t have this issue.. no one is paying more than anyone else to shoot... typically no hotels.. no meals .. etc...

So the expenses don’t make it truly comparable.

[Joe4d]

seems we have a big issue with entitled, greedy, money grubbers.
Oh boo hoo, I need a big prize table, or I wont come
Oh boo hoo, I expect all expenses paid and then some or I wont work,,
Good grief,,, I RO'd for years locals and majors, think the most I ever got was a T shirt and a lunch, and a free staff shoot I sucked at cause I was tired from working in sun all day.and didnt really care about that. Just did it because I loved the game and knew if if wasnt for folks like me the game wouldnt happen. Got my own hotel "GASP !!!"  even went to dinner with the other Ro's and had fun,,,,,, "Gasp"
Honestly this thread makes me sick. Bunch of entitled spoiled brats

[rustychev]

8 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I haven't run any matches.  Just like I've never operated a car making company.  But I know what I will and will not pay for each of their products.

 

What happens when a good or service that you are used to buying continues to go up in price?

 

Do you negotiate a lower price?  Do you take your money somewhere else?

 

Or do you just accept the sob story from the seller and hand over your cash?

 

The buyer sets the price.  That is the point.  You can try explaining why your can't meet the buyers' expectations and hope they feel sorry for you.  Or you can adjust your model to make your price acceptable to the buyers.

 

The failure to understand at a basic level how pricing works is one of the main reasons so many fail at business.

I dont mean to discount anything your saying here but I dont think any one club has the buying power to negotiate prices.  Much less a once a year level 2 or 3 and when it comes to most things we need there are only so many places to buy from so going somewhere else is tough. 

 

Also I dont fully agree that the buyer sets the price.  I would agree that the seller only sells if the price is high enough and the buyer on buys if the price is low enough so I would say the real price floats someplace in the middle 

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, Jollymon32 said:

Crass, but spot on.

 

And the underlying reason for this topic.  The price ‘they have set’ may have moved downward.  This will require MD’s to work creatively on getting the consumer to elevate their ‘set price’ point.  Just relying on the argument that ‘costs are high’ to move the consumer’s price point will not be effective if the supply of cheap, 9 stage, L1 matches is plentiful.  In this environment, differentiation and raising the value proposition will be required to drive attendance.  Obviously, value increases when price is lowered, but there are other ways of increasing the  consumer’s perception of value so as to justify a higher price.  This where the MD’s need to get creative.

 

i don't think they need to be creative, just competent. If I pay $60 for a 1-day 8-stage, section match everything really only has to be average after that. 2 RO's per stage, legal but not necessarily elaborate stages, etc.... If I pay $250 for a 3-day 15-18 stage match, I expect to see a good prize table, 3 RO's or more per stage (experienced RO's with a good attitude), things need to run on time, the stages should be more interesting and more sturdily constructed, etc... 

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Joe4d said:

seems we have a big issue with entitled, greedy, money grubbers.
Oh boo hoo, I need a big prize table, or I wont come
Oh boo hoo, I expect all expenses paid and then some or I wont work,,
Good grief,,, I RO'd for years locals and majors, think the most I ever got was a T shirt and a lunch, and a free staff shoot I sucked at cause I was tired from working in sun all day.and didnt really care about that. Just did it because I loved the game and knew if if wasnt for folks like me the game wouldnt happen. Got my own hotel "GASP !!!"  even went to dinner with the other Ro's and had fun,,,,,, "Gasp"
Honestly this thread makes me sick. Bunch of entitled spoiled brats

vote for bernie, and then uspsa shooters (whiny ones as well as saints like yourself) will all be in the re-education gulag. 

 

Seriously, your thoughts make sense for local matches and maybe smaller sectionals. We help out at those things for love, and because it only takes a day instead of a full week.

 

I'd rather pay a few dollars more for motivated top RO's than have to scrape around to find a few guys who are certified and not doing anything better that weekend and don't really want to work that much but are willing to help out the club.

Edited February 24, 2020 by motosapiens

[Joe4d]

so,, Comping a hotel room is gonna make an RO better ? and those that are there for the love of the game are all lazy and dont want to work ? Ah ok got it.

[Jollymon32]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

i don't think they need to be creative, just competent. If I pay $60 for a 1-day 8-stage, section match everything really only has to be average after that. 2 RO's per stage, legal but not necessarily elaborate stages, etc.... If I pay $250 for a 3-day 15-18 stage match, I expect to see a good prize table, 3 RO's or more per stage (experienced RO's with a good attitude), things need to run on time, the stages should be more interesting and more sturdily constructed, etc... 

I don’t believe a $60 price tag match is seeing a decline in attendace, it’s the $200+ one day match that is seeing the decline.  It is those MD’s that are going to have to be creative to justify the cost and raise the value prop.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Jollymon32 said:

I don’t believe a $60 price tag match is seeing a decline in attendace, it’s the $200+ one day match that is seeing the decline.  It is those MD’s that are going to have to be creative to justify the cost and raise the value prop.

fair point. I've never seen a $200 1-day match and would probably laugh if I did, so maybe we're talking about entirely different things. Thanks for the clarification.

 

 

[Brooke]

8 hours ago, Joe4d said:

so,, Comping a hotel room is gonna make an RO better ? and those that are there for the love of the game are all lazy and dont want to work ? Ah ok got it.

 

Yes! I'm not saying shooting is a cheap hobby. Try tournament bass fishing. It will make you feel better about shooting. Or maybe drag racing. 

 

I agree that keeping major match (especially L2 matches) entry fees in line is important. However major matches need competent RO's and CRO's especially.. Three per stage minimum and 4 if a match covers multiple days. I live in an area of the country where being an RO is popular. At my club's local matches I am frequently on 10-12 person squads where every person is an RO. However not all of those due to work schedules, experience, health, etc. are in a position to volunteer for area matches. That is especially true if they have to pay all their expenses. Why would I work my close L2 match or even an Area match if it cost me personally more than just entering? Is that hard?

 

There are certainly lots of matches. Too many maybe. That does tend to moderate costs and improve quality because shooters can pick and choose, but it also puts pressure to run the best match and that usually costs more. For example a L2 and above match with poor ROing is just an expensive local match and will soon fail. I know many wannabe shooters have kids, expensive wives who don't care about shooting, unusual expenses, or not great paying jobs. That's life. Many shooters maybe most have to prioritize their expenses to meet their other obligations. That's not uncommon but it is uneven. Decisions you made or make now are a factor on your disposable income.

 

I see no useful reason to make your club's major match the cheapest one anywhere because it will also probably be the worst one. On the other hand being the most expensive is likely to sink your match eventually. My club owns its range and puts on a good major and frequently 2 majors each year. RO's from out of town and RMs are covered for hotels, lunches and match items like shirts. The match is not cheap to shoot running 5-10 times what we charge for a local match. Without even counting expenses that are for items used all year like props and steel our margins are shockingly small. So small that a slight hiccup puts us in the red. We are not milking any participant. The goal is a good match and we take the risk of losing money which does happen.

 

The shooters other expenses (hotel, food, etc) are not my problem. I shoot 6-8 majors myself and I know how expensive those things are. 

 

In answer to your question.........Hell yes comping a hotel room makes ROing better and without that the match sucks. So without being a smart ass at all, if shooting exceeds your available funds you need to get the two in line. Shoot fewer matches or change hobbies.  I don't think any major match I attend is getting rich.

[Shootingaggie]

How about a $30 local match with 4 courses of fire?

[waktasz]

never ever

[Shootingaggie]

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

never ever

Was thinking the same thing. Probably gonna stop going those for awhile. And they wonder why we have like 10 people come to them

[Balakay]

12 hours ago, Shootingaggie said:

How about a $30 local match with 4 courses of fire?

Is lunch included?  

Hard pass

[Shootingaggie]

2 hours ago, Balakay said:

Is lunch included?  

Hard pass

I’m not sure there’s water out there

[rowdyb]

If I didnt have to tear down or set up and it was super convenient to my schedule and location I would gladly pay $30 for a 4 stage match.

[Shootingaggie]

46 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

If I didnt have to tear down or set up and it was super convenient to my schedule and location I would gladly pay $30 for a 4 stage match.

For sure tear down. Set up gets a slight discount. 
 

One of the stages was simply a plate rack. 

[BillChunn]

On 6/5/2021 at 7:32 PM, Shootingaggie said:

How about a $30 local match with 4 courses of fire?

Around here (Michigan) an "all classifier" 5-6 stage match is $30.  The regular match fee is $25 and the extra $5 helps cover the increased USPSA cost for multiple classifiers.

 

4 stages and one being a plate rack for $30..... not going to waste ammo, gas or time on that..... 

 

BC