Match fee affecting attendance?

[Ssanders224]

1 minute ago, Maximis228 said:

 

Well that's just... Dumb. lol.

 

I don't necessarily disagree.... However not all match/club situations are the same, so I try to have a more open minded view. 

 

If a club/match has willing volunteers, has no "range" expense, and chooses to put available funds back into cash payouts, prizes, food for the shooters, etc... then I'm all for that.  That can/does happen. I'm not just dreaming it up. 

[mikeg1005]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

What I was trying to say is if people help at the matches in their area the cost to put on those matches would be lower. That is all. The match doesn't have to suffer unless all your local RO's are incompetent. I'm not saying matches should be cheaper over all. Most of the majors I shoot are priced fine. But, I would not travel to Florida to shoot 11 stages for $300.

 

Price them as high as the market will bear. Clearly if attendance is dropping the FO then either price is to high or the quality is too low.

 

 

 

"Local" ROs are incompetent.  Travel to any level 3 or Nationals.   I'd be willing to bet 60+% of the match staff is always the same.  Good ROs are hard to come by and should be paid well to stick around.  

 

How you spend your money is on you but looking at cost per stage at a local match and applying it to a major is not realistic.  Locals are typically poorly ran, don't supply anything for the shooter (food/water), don't have any extra 'fees' beyond match supplies. 

 

[Ssanders224]

5 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

I guess you could call it profit... When the home range says we want _____ to host a match.  I'm sure there are those who make nothing but on the other hand I know of several clubs locally that held sectionals and there had a per shoot cost that went into their bank account, above and beyond running the cost of the match.  

 

This is especially true of local matches.  Both of my clubs make $1000s and $1000s of dollars off USPSA. 

 

 

10-4. 
For the sake of this discussion, it's just necessary to distinguish revenue/profit. 

Local matches are a different conversation entirely. A club should be able to profit from local matches without much effort (barring certain circumstances such as very small clubs and/or ranges that charge the club a ton).  

[mikeg1005]

1 minute ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

10-4. 
For the sake of this discussion, it's just necessary to distinguish revenue/profit. 

 

 

House gets money that isn't spent on the match, how's that?   Universal calls it profit since they're a business, your local club calls it extra funds for the club since they're non for profit. 

 

Neither goes to the match or the shooter.  

[Sarge]

Just read all of this. Profit or not, $275 is way too much to pay for 11 stages. I put on large matches and know the costs involved so I'm not speculating.

[Maximis228]

I look forward to when USPSA gets out of its own way.... bumps up match fees a lot... has paid resetters... cash payouts for all classes... legit sponsorships (Paying cash to market... not sending products or certs that require additional payments)... legit video coverage... among many other things we could be doing to improve.

 

Or we can keep complaining about who can get the lowest fee matches with the most volunteers from the good ol boys club.

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

"Local" ROs are incompetent.  Travel to any level 3 or Nationals.   I'd be willing to bet 60+% of the match staff is always the same.  Good ROs are hard to come by and should be paid well to stick around.  

 

How you spend your money is on you but looking at cost per stage at a local match and applying it to a major is not realistic.  Locals are typically poorly ran, don't supply anything for the shooter (food/water), don't have any extra 'fees' beyond match supplies. 

 

 

Your right, I'm done helping at majors and I'll likely shoot better anyway with less to worry about.

 

And I agree cost per stage isn't really something I've ever considered at least not directly. And certainly not comparing locals to majors, which I didn't do. But looking at the numbers from the OP, I wouldn't go to Florida for this match. My local state match will have just as many shooters, just as many stages, and be free because I was dumb enough to offer to help. I'll shoot a couple other section matches that will be just as big if not bigger and cost half as much, even our Area match will be a lot bigger and still a lot less then this match was.

[Sarge]

6 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

"Local" ROs are incompetent.  SPEAK FOR YOUR OWN LOCAL RO'S. I STAFF MY MAJORS WITH AS MANY "LOCAL" RO'S AS I CAN FIND. BY LOCAL I MEAN FROM MY STATE. BUT THEY STILL ALL GET HOTEL ROOMS. I WOULD STACK MY CREW UP AGAINST ANY CREW, UP TO AND INCLUDING NATIONALS.

Travel to any level 3 or Nationals.   I'd be willing to bet 60+% of the match staff is always the same. YES MANY ARE THE SAME BUT I CERTAINLY WON'T SAY THEY ARE ALL EXCELLENT RO'S. PLENTY OF MISSED OR ERRONEOUS CALLS ARE STILL MADE.

  Good ROs are hard to come by and should be paid well to stick around.  STAFF THAT IS "TREATED' WELL, NOT PAID WELL, WILL STICK AROUND. PEOPLE ASK TO WORK MY MATCHES BECAUSE I MAKE THEM WANT TO COME BACK BY TREATING THEM LIKE THE VALUABLE RESOURCE THEY ARE. I HAVE WORKED MAJORS THAT I WILL NEVER WORK AGAIN FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER AND THAT TAUGHT ME WHAT "NOT" TO DO AS MD.

 

 

[mikeg1005]

3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Just read all of this. Profit or not, $275 is way too much to pay for 11 stages. I put on large matches and know the costs involved so I'm not speculating.

There are people who think $200 for 14 is too much money as well.  

 

 

[mikeg1005]

2 minutes ago, Sarge said:

 

 

Sarge,

 

We got "Local ROs" that staff your matches and nationals.  Then we also have "Local ROs" who are the guys who took the class (or didn't) and volunteer to run the timer on Sundays.  They have 0 concept of how to move a squad along, they just have the cert and more or less know the rules.   BIG difference and hence why I said what I said. 

 

If you staffed a major with all the local guys who RO and not the best ones... it would be a trainwreck. 

[Sarge]

3 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

There are people who think $200 for 14 is too much money as well.  

 

 

Don't shoot it. 

[Sarge]

3 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

Sarge,

 

We got "Local ROs" that staff your matches and nationals.  Then we also have "Local ROs" who are the guys who took the class (or didn't) and volunteer to run the timer on Sundays.  They have 0 concept of how to move a squad along, they just have the cert and more or less know the rules.   BIG difference and hence why I said what I said. 

 

If you staffed a major with all the local guys who RO and not the best ones... it would be a trainwreck. 

True. I have a mental list of those who do not work my matches. I think my local area is very top heavy on certified staff. Every local I shoot ill bet there are 4-6 RO or CRO's on every squad.

I still remember shooting a major where the RM was called to chrono because my mag was too long. My 140 mag that is. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Sarge

[mikeg1005]

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

Don't shoot it. 

 

Exactly.  Match fees are trivial in comparison to all the other costs in this sport, I don't understand how people critique them. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

Sarge,

 

We got "Local ROs" that staff your matches and nationals.  Then we also have "Local ROs" who are the guys who took the class (or didn't) and volunteer to run the timer on Sundays.  They have 0 concept of how to move a squad along, they just have the cert and more or less know the rules.   BIG difference and hence why I said what I said. 

 

If you staffed a major with all the local guys who RO and not the best ones... it would be a trainwreck. 

 

You can always take those guys and put them with a experienced crew so they can learn. But typically you will only get fairly serious guys looking to spend 3-4 days working a match not the guy's you are describing. 

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You can always take those guys and put them with a experienced crew so they can learn. But typically you will only get fairly serious guys looking to spend 3-4 days working a match not the guy's you are describing. 

Majors are no place to try to train staff. If in desparation a weaker RO can run the pad maybe but then that kills the other guys who have to run all the shooters. I like knowing the staff is doing a good job. I love hearing from shooters that staff knew what they were doing, were professional, etc.

RM and I have actually pulled staff from a match who was having trouble being professional. MD's need to not be afraid to make those tough calls.

[Maximis228]

Expecting to keep and gain more good ROs while paying them nothing is a suckers bet long term for USPSA.

 

I would never considering giving up my weekend for nothing other than a free match fee. I love and applaud those who do, but I also think they are crazy for doing it.

[RJH]

Why i brought up cost per stage is this:

 

As a shooter I (and every one else), has to decide what is important to them and what they are willing to pay for. Majors only advantage to me is the bigger competition,  which is not really that big a deal, cause I get my ass kicked by the local gm/m. And possibly higher quality stages, but that don't always hold true.

 

I don't mind helping ro, reset, teardown at locals and i get the added benefit of smaller squads, shooting with people i know are willing to work setting the stage, and being done in a shorter time frame, all at a greatly reduced cost. I am completely back pocket funded so value for the dollar is huge to me.  

 

I do agree that after working several majors,  I will probably never work another.  If i can't afford/aren't willing to pay the entry fee, i will stay home.....or go shoot 10 locals

[Sarge]

4 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

Expecting to keep and gain more good ROs while paying them nothing is a suckers bet long term for USPSA.

 

I would never considering giving up my weekend for nothing other than a free match fee. I love and applaud those who do, but I also think they are crazy for doing it.

Thinking somebody is crazy for volunteering to help the sport is fine by me. Just like I think those that NEVER help could do more. But I get it. I even tell newer RO's who jump at every chance to work a match that they need to make a choice. Either become an awesome shooter and try to win matches or become an awesome volunteer and try to work every match. It's pretty rare to see somebody who is truly good at both. That's one reason many major staff "regulars" are old and worn out. all the young guns are showing up Sunday and trying to win.

[mikeg1005]

13 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Majors are no place to try to train staff. If in desparation a weaker RO can run the pad maybe but then that kills the other guys who have to run all the shooters. I like knowing the staff is doing a good job. I love hearing from shooters that staff knew what they were doing, were professional, etc.

RM and I have actually pulled staff from a match who was having trouble being professional. MD's need to not be afraid to make those tough calls.

 

Only match I shot of yours was A5 last year and it was ran very well and we flew through the stages.   Keep doing whatever you're doing it works haha. 

[Maximis228]

10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Thinking somebody is crazy for volunteering to help the sport is fine by me. Just like I think those that NEVER help could do more. But I get it. I even tell newer RO's who jump at every chance to work a match that they need to make a choice. Either become an awesome shooter and try to win matches or become an awesome volunteer and try to work every match. It's pretty rare to see somebody who is truly good at both. That's one reason many major staff "regulars" are old and worn out. all the young guns are showing up Sunday and trying to win.

 

I ran my local club for 4.5 years (close to 140 matches) and design stages for majors now. While trying to win matches. Ive done both. Shooting is more fun. LOL.

[motosapiens]

43 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Majors are no place to try to train staff. If in desparation a weaker RO can run the pad maybe but then that kills the other guys who have to run all the shooters.

 

I'm not sure I agree with that. IMHO, as long as you have sufficient personnel, majors might be the BEST place to train staff. If you have 3 RO's on a stage, it's not at all a bad thing for one of them to be a newbie, and if you have a good CRO he/she will likely learn things the right way.  I may be biased on this topic because I had the benefit of learning from outstanding RO's  and RM's at nationals and area matches, and as a now-experienced CRO, I am happy to take on some newer RO's.

 

Regarding the rest of the conversation.... whatever.... If you don't want to pay for a particular match, don't pay it. Adam Smith's invisible hand is real.

 

I personally will always volunteer to work my section match because it's only 1 day of work and I enjoy it, but if someone spends 2-3 days running shooters for 10 hours a day, they should be compensated for it. Hotel/match-fee at a minimum, or a food/lodging stipend that can be used however the RO wants. Some folks will bring an RV or shack up friends and make a few bucks. Good for them. I have noticed that the matches in the west that compensate staff well can be pretty choosy about their staff and only take the best folks. These matches seem to run extremely well in my experience. They also get alot of energetic younger staff, many of whom are high-level competitors as well, so not just the old-broken-down retiree crowd.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Majors are no place to try to train staff. If in desparation a weaker RO can run the pad maybe but then that kills the other guys who have to run all the shooters. I like knowing the staff is doing a good job. I love hearing from shooters that staff knew what they were doing, were professional, etc.

RM and I have actually pulled staff from a match who was having trouble being professional. MD's need to not be afraid to make those tough calls.

 

So how does one go from RO'ing just at the club level to RO'ing at a LVL 2? 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Maximis228 said:

Expecting to keep and gain more good ROs while paying them nothing is a suckers bet long term for USPSA.

 

I would never considering giving up my weekend for nothing other than a free match fee. I love and applaud those who do, but I also think they are crazy for doing it.

 

Most of the matches I've worked staff got hotel and match fee covered. Two match jersey's, a match T-shirt, Staff dinner, some kind of staff gift, random prizes at staff dinner (everyone wins something decent) and a chance at the random drawing for competitors too, lunch provided everyday plus water and gator-aide. I feel like that should be the minimum, but I know there are a lot of matches that don't go nearly that far for staff. I assume the staff at the FO was compensated pretty well considering the entry fee.

[Maximis228]

Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

Most of the matches I've worked staff got hotel and match fee covered. Two match jersey's, a match T-shirt, Staff dinner, some kind of staff gift, random prizes at staff dinner (everyone wins something decent) and a chance at the random drawing for competitors too, lunch provided everyday plus water and gator-aide. I feel like that should be the minimum, but I know there are a lot of matches that don't go nearly that far for staff. I assume the staff at the FO was compensated pretty well considering the entry fee.

 

Sorry I wasn't more clear before. Match staff should walk out with CASH OR A CHECK... Hotel, food, match fee and match shirts go without saying.

[Mcfoto]

I RO as a way to give back to the sport not to make money. Even when I’m able to spend the night with relatives, I’m lucky to come close to break even. The worse bath was working Lo-cap nats in November due to airfare from Oregon to Florida. Even with a paid room and a per diem, it cost me about $500. But I got a vacation where I met a lot of cool folks and got to see world-class shooters up close and personal.