Match fee affecting attendance?

[IHAVEGAS]

33 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So how does one go from RO'ing just at the club level to RO'ing at a LVL 2? 

 

The way I've seen it done. Head cheese looks at stage particulars and assigns the best talent to the stages with the greatest opportunity for issues. Any green r.o.'s spend a lot of time running the timer on staff day & get good feedback as is appropriate, any tough calls come up and the green folks are asked to weigh in. Head cheese makes sure that anyone green is together with a well experienced CRO during the match. 

 

My first couple L2 matches I ran the score pad every shooter. To my thinking that is more work than alternating between paper person and running the timer so I never perceived it as a burden on the experienced guys. 

 

(And I do not go to big matches anymore, too cheap, hate to commit months in advance, hate to shoot in the rain, too many good local matches, and old enough that after about 8 stages I am like the monkey that was in love with the skunk). 

Edited February 18, 2020 by IHAVEGAS

[Maximis228]

6 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

Even with a paid room and a per diem, it cost me about $500.

 

This is unacceptable IMO.

[CHA-LEE]

[Sarge]

56 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So how does one go from RO'ing just at the club level to RO'ing at a LVL 2? 

By ROing for a long time at locals to gain experience. Then get noticed or recommended to an MD. I have an RMI local to me and he will occasionally recommend a stellar performer from a seminar. 
  When a relative newcomer gets recommended by anyone else I reach out to learn more.

[motosapiens]

2 minutes ago, Sarge said:

By ROing for a long time at locals to gain experience. Then get noticed or recommended to an MD. I have an RMI local to me and he will occasionally recommend a stellar performer from a seminar. 

 

hmmm. that might work if you had a really stellar local RO corps that would make sure newbies learn how to do things right at locals. In my experience, most places don't have that.

 

At my RO class in 2012, Kevin Imel encouraged us to apply to work big matches even tho we were green. I worked nationals my first year in the sport and it was extremely valuable. We had a very experienced CRO, and also a well-known RM on the stage. I would probably never have RO'd enough at locals to stand out or be noticed by anyone, but working nationals under the tutelage of good experienced folks gave me the skills and confidence to help bring a similar level of consistency to our local matches.

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

hmmm. that might work if you had a really stellar local RO corps that would make sure newbies learn how to do things right at locals. In my experience, most places don't have that.

 

At my RO class in 2012, Kevin Imel encouraged us to apply to work big matches even tho we were green. I worked nationals my first year in the sport and it was extremely valuable. We had a very experienced CRO, and also a well-known RM on the stage. I would probably never have RO'd enough at locals to stand out or be noticed by anyone, but working nationals under the tutelage of good experienced folks gave me the skills and confidence to help bring a similar level of consistency to our local matches.

I guess I’m lucky in that regard. Local RO corps is indeed very strong around here. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Sarge

[motosapiens]

Undead RO's sound a bit creepy. 

 

I think even with a strong local RO corps, you're going to end up with more consistency in the long run by having newer RO's work area and national matches and see how the most experienced CRO's and RM's are running things. Also helps to have the experienced guys work nats, because things change.

[Mcfoto]

I think the biggest issue facing RMs is the aging RO corps. At Nats I was one of the youngest and I’m 60! My roommate had a gent on his crew that couldn’t get off a stool so ended up on the clipboard all match. When I got to my bay, the first question I was asked by the CRO was could I run a squad? At first, I thought this was a silly question to ask an RO at Nats but I saw later, there were “ROs” that didn’t know how to run the brick! Troy and Mike are fully aware of this trend and spoke to us at the staff dinner about the need for younger folks to RO. The biggest barrier is the young bucks are hyper competitive and don’t want to use their brains for anything other than pew pew.

[Maximis228]

21 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

 The biggest barrier is the young bucks are hyper competitive and don’t want to use their brains for anything other than pew pew.

 

Yes... #f*#kthecrown

[mikeg1005]

25 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

I think the biggest issue facing RMs is the aging RO corps. At Nats I was one of the youngest and I’m 60!

........

The biggest barrier is the young bucks are hyper competitive and don’t want to use their brains for anything other than pew pew.

 

I mean yea... young people not wanting to use vacation to go and RO matches which is a thankless s#!tty job and I have no idea why people do it but am super thankful they do or we wouldn't have this sport....  I can see how it would be something better fitted for retirees.

Being a dedicated squad RO at locals ruins the match let alone doing it for a whole weekend and still expecting to shoot well.   

[CHA-LEE]

This topic is the classic argument of a product being worth its price. This applies to everything sold and bought. If you think the entry fee for a particular match is too high then don't attend. Its as simple as that. Are match directors going to push the envelope on what they can charge for an entry fee? Absolutely. Are shooters going to whine about any match fee above what a club match fee would normally be? Absolutely. The ebb and flow of that argument will go on until the end of time.

[Joe4d]

what about the process of becoming an RO ? 15 -20 year ago it was a royal PIA,,, seems was like one class in the region over a couple years.  Dont remember the cost, but I was dumb enough to pay it. DIdnt know any better back then..
But as far as the classic argument. Op wasnt arguing  value. He was asking if fees were affecting attendance.
Looks like about 70 people decided the product wasnt worth price after they payed it once and didnt come back.
I dont see anyone here offering any alternatives, valid or other wise. Bad weather ? political climate ? corovirus ?  Match got stagnant and repetitive or poorly run ?
 

[aandabooks]

When I RO'd my first Level 2 match last year I applied and had my son (19 now) apply.  We both obviously got assigned together with a CRO.  When we arrived on our stage for the Saturday of the match and met the CRO he asked if my son would be able to do everything.  My son had been an RO since he was 16 and regularly runs shooters at local matches as well as handle the pad.  I told the CRO that I would not have allowed him to apply to staff the match if he was not capable of doing everything needed.  We all worked the weekend and rotated duties throughout the weekend with no issues.

 

I expect as an RO at a Level 2 match a minimum of hotel or travel expenses reimbursed if traveling from home daily, free lunch at the range, dinner on staff day, match shirt and RO prize bag.  Extras nice perks would be RO only raffles for guns and stipend for dinners away from range.

[CHA-LEE]

The level of match staff compensation is directly associated with how much income there is to work with. I understand that RO's want all of their expenses covered in order to work the match, but you need the appropriate expectation based on the potential income the match has to work with. A match with a $100 entry fee and a total of 150 shooters is going to have a lot less income to offset expenses verses a $275 entry fee with 265 shooters. Not to mention the increasing difficulty to get sponsors committed to assisting matches.

 

I also want to point out that match staff whining about not getting their full expenses paid for over a weekend really don't have a leg to stand on when when compared to the time and effort invested by the Match Director, Range Master and other primary staff members. I know that for the Level 2 matches I have run in the past as the Match Director I had at LEAST 200 hours invested in the administration and prep for the match before even getting to the range on the first day to start setup. I don't take a dime in reimbursement for my time or travel expenses. If I did, and applied my normal hourly wage to the effort there wouldn't be any money left to run the match. This is all to say that there is no getting around the fact that EVERYONE is donating some of their own time or money to help make major matches happen. Without that level of donation to the sport all of the major match entry fee's would be $500 - $1000 which I know NOBODY wants to pay.

 

Pick your poison. Open your wallet and pay hefty match fees so that match staff can be fully compensated. Or have reasonable match fee's knowing that you will need to donate some of your time and money to help make it happen.

[Jollymon32]

So, the reason for the original post was to get some input on what may be happening in the other areas of the country.

 

I am very close to MD’s in Florida and the Carolinas and I understand the costs and the finances involved in putting on matches.  I believe that evolving trends need to be understood and adapted to in order to survive.  

 

In South and Central Florida, the advent of FOR PROFIT clubs putting on 9 quality stages for $30-$35 is what I believe is killing the demand for L2 matches.  These L1 matches sell out in hours (100 plus shooters) and the clubs reuse the same stages for USPSA, Two gun, and Action steel during the month with 8 stages of Steel Challenge on the remaining weekend.  

 

If indeed these “monthly L2 matches for $30” are soaking up a lot of the casual shooters, MD’s are going to have to get creative in their value prop to attract the casual shooters to the more expensive L2 matches (in price and cost).

 

 

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

I mean yea... young people not wanting to use vacation to go and RO matches which is a thankless s#!tty job and I have no idea why people do it but am super thankful they do or we wouldn't have this sport....  I can see how it would be something better fitted for retirees.

i can't speak for anyone else, but I started working major matches my first year in the sport. I personally enjoy the match atmosphere, and the challenge of trying to run a perfectly-officiated stage, and I was exposed to every possible sort of shooter, and I think that helped my own shooting. With the typical compensation packages we are seeing these days (for multi-day matches), I don't really feel as much like a volunteer. I feel like I'm being paid enough that I need to be 100% professional. Yeah, it's not what I make at my job, but a free staff match and a place to stay and 1 or 2 other tidbits adds up pretty quick, especially considering I was already going to go the match and pay out of my pocket for that stuff. Yeah, even if you are well-prepared it is a little bit harder and takes more focus to shoot well in a staff match. That's ok with me. and it leads to the next thing.....

 

after working area matches and nationals for the last 7-8 years, I don't have any problem paying $250+ for a well organized 3-day area match where I don't have to build stages, I don't have to tear down stages, I don't have to run the timer, and I get plenty of time to walk the stages and analyze them and plan, and plenty of time to hang out with friends and enjoy life. I don't get any of that stuff at a local match.

I don't want to work every match, but working 2-3 majors each year helps my budget and also really helps me enjoy the other 2-3 majors that I don't work.

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, Mcfoto said:

I think the biggest issue facing RMs is the aging RO corps. At Nats I was one of the youngest and I’m 60! My roommate had a gent on his crew that couldn’t get off a stool so ended up on the clipboard all match. When I got to my bay, the first question I was asked by the CRO was could I run a squad? At first, I thought this was a silly question to ask an RO at Nats but I saw later, there were “ROs” that didn’t know how to run the brick! Troy and Mike are fully aware of this trend and spoke to us at the staff dinner about the need for younger folks to RO. The biggest barrier is the young bucks are hyper competitive and don’t want to use their brains for anything other than pew pew.

You want to talk about age? Look no further than the RM corps. I have put forth multiple ideas to help with that but got nowhere.

[motosapiens]

14 hours ago, Sarge said:

You want to talk about age? Look no further than the RM corps. I have put forth multiple ideas to help with that but got nowhere.

we've got two pretty young (less than 50) RMI's here in the west. I've noticed a bunch of new RM's being certified in the last few years. It's something I have some interest in when I retire (i'll be 'old' at 62, but still pretty young compared to most folks in their 50's).

 

It's definitely a much bigger time commitment than RO-ing a stage. I can see how it would be a real challenge for someone still working to find that kind of time on a regular basis.

[ClangClang]

I'm in my mid 30's, regularly run the timer at my local matches, and I'm taking the RO seminar next month to be more official about things. I probably fall into that "hyper competitive bracket" mentioned up thread, but in a lazy, mid pack B-class, rarely dryfiring sort of way

Also should be working at least an Area match this summer, if not a Sectional as well. Trying to help you old guys out!

[TonytheTiger]

On 2/18/2020 at 10:22 AM, Maximis228 said:

I look forward to when USPSA gets out of its own way.... bumps up match fees a lot... has paid resetters... cash payouts for all classes... legit sponsorships (Paying cash to market... not sending products or certs that require additional payments)... legit video coverage... among many other things we could be doing to improve.

 

Or we can keep complaining about who can get the lowest fee matches with the most volunteers from the good ol boys club.

 

 

Breaking news: Shooting sports people not yet ready to pay anything above bare minimum. Still prepared to complain about receiving bare minimum type matches.

[Jollymon32]

9 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

Breaking news: Shooting sports people not yet ready to pay anything above bare minimum. Still prepared to complain about receiving bare minimum type matches.

It’s not their complaining that is notable, it’s their absence.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Jollymon32

[RadarTech]

we've got two pretty young (less than 50) RMI's here in the west. I've noticed a bunch of new RM's being certified in the last few years. It's something I have some interest in when I retire (i'll be 'old' at 62, but still pretty young compared to most folks in their 50's).
 
It's definitely a much bigger time commitment than RO-ing a stage. I can see how it would be a real challenge for someone still working to find that kind of time on a regular basis.

Yes.... I RM 2 or 3 a year... and it pretty much means a week off per match between travel and time at the range..

As someone who is not retired, there are limits to the amount of time you can use to RM a match...

Say it is a Thursday to Sunday match... you would have to travel to be there Tuesday night for stage approval.. and then leave Sunday night or Monday...
Friday to Sunday— travel Wednesday and the. Leave Sunday or Monday..
part depends on how far you have to travel

And sometimes you need to be there earlier than 1 day ahead depending on the staff at the match...

I think the match fees will continue to go up... and I think there will be challenges as we have “retirements” of long time staff.

As for RMs- (not counting RMI) I think I was the youngest until this last group just got approved... Mark is in his 30s. And I think one of the RMIs is in their upper 30s.. I’m closing in on 50... man I now feel old.... well maybe not... thanks folks!

[rustychev]

For me at 38  its not about being hyper competitive or cost or lack of reimbursement and it has every thing to do with working full time, two kids under 10 and a wife.  This is why I think the RO crews tend to be older.

 

I would like to work area 3 witch is my area match but that a lot of time off work and time leaving the wife at home by her self with the kids.

 

Staff shoots Thursday competitors shoot Friday, Saturday and Sunday.  So Im looking at a minimum of taking half a day Wednesday to drive down Thursday Friday and Monday as Im not driving back 4 hours to get home Sunday night after 4 long days on the range.  So thats 3.5 days of time off work and 5 nights and 4.5 days my wife has to run the house and take care of the kids by her self.  

 

[SGT_Schultz]

On 2/18/2020 at 9:24 AM, Maximis228 said:

These topics are hilarious as they are normally had by people who dont run matches and dont know the underlying costs of what it takes to put said matches on.

 

What you fail to understand is that the consumer doesn't give a s#!t about your costs.  The consumer sets the price.  If they see your price higher than what they have set, you don't get their money.

[Brooke]

9 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

What you fail to understand is that the consumer doesn't give a s#!t about your costs.  The consumer sets the price.  If they see your price higher than what they have set, you don't get their money.

 

nice attitude dude. If groups can't pay costs they won't have matches. Is that concept difficult?

Edited February 23, 2020 by Brooke