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If .40 dies one day, what to do with Limited?


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I swear this isn't a trolling topic!

 

With Law Enforcement switching back to 9mm, and my own observation that I almost never see .40 pistols on gun store shelves, it seems clear that .40 is on it's way to becoming obsolete in the greater shooting world.  I shoot Limited major, and my worst nightmare is a dystopian future where, long after the matches are over and the sun is going down, the Limited shooters are still on the bays crawling around on their hands and knees mining for brass, like crackheads picking through shag carpet searching for a possible fallen piece of crack.  Guys trying to brass during the match, while other shooters are still shooting!  Warring Brass Gangs will form! Picatinny rail mounted mesh brass catchers will become all the rage, making kydex holsters unheard of.

  

But seriously, if .40 died and we all had to buy brass from Starline to keep shooting our .40 Limited Major pistols, at that point I think a change would be in order.  It would be just too expensive to take advantage of major PF scoring.  But it also seems like the change would need to be such that 9mm and .40 were at equal advantage, so that no one's equipment becomes useless.  This is a hypothetical, forward-thinking exercise that I hope has already crossed someone's mind at headquarters.  If .40 becomes as rare as 38 super, what changes would you want to see?  

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I swear this isn't a trolling topic!
 
With Law Enforcement switching back to 9mm, and my own observation that I almost never see .40 pistols on gun store shelves, it seems clear that .40 is on it's way to becoming obsolete in the greater shooting world.  I shoot Limited major, and my worst nightmare is a dystopian future where, long after the matches are over and the sun is going down, the Limited shooters are still on the bays crawling around on their hands and knees mining for brass, like crackheads picking through shag carpet searching for a possible fallen piece of crack.  Guys trying to brass during the match, while other shooters are still shooting!  Warring Brass Gangs will form! Picatinny rail mounted mesh brass catchers will become all the rage, making kydex holsters unheard of.
  
But seriously, if .40 died and we all had to buy brass from Starline to keep shooting our .40 Limited Major pistols, at that point I think a change would be in order.  It would be just too expensive to take advantage of major PF scoring.  But it also seems like the change would need to be such that 9mm and .40 were at equal advantage, so that no one's equipment becomes useless.  This is a hypothetical, forward-thinking exercise that I hope has already crossed someone's mind at headquarters.  If .40 becomes as rare as 38 super, what changes would you want to see?  
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1 minute ago, obsessiveshooter said:

I'm not talking now or next year. But I'm betting in 10 years it will be very uncommon.

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.38 super comp is not common in the stores, yet it is common in open...
people will still reload for what they need...
do you think people shooting .40s in limited get their ammo from Walmart???

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38 super comp is not common at all around here, virtually everyone shoots 9 major.  I have trouble imagining Open shooters being happy where the only way to take advantage of major PF was with 38 super comp.  Did you read my original post???  I'm talking about brass. You need regular people buying .40 ammo at walmart so that there is a brass supply for us comp shooters to reload .40.   No one is buying new brass that I know of.   

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I get what you're saying. In the wider world .40 has fallen from favor. And in our world it exists solely for a scoring rule reason. So you worry that the outside trend will effect the shooting sport side of it. A central Texas trainer type guy, Jeff Gonzales, said out loud recently "40 is dead outside of uspsa". You're not the only one thinking this sort of thing.

 

But I think you have little to worry about for many reasons, some historical and some just good guesses on my part.

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As someone who brass hounds for .40, it's getting rarer and rarer. As stated above, I think that the only reason it's still a viable caliber are the rules that make it ideal for Limited Major. If the rules change the .40 caliber rule or Major is lowered again, it'll be the death knell. My Chrystal ball says that in 10 years, .40 will be in the same boat .38 super currently occupies: just a few die-hards who don't want to upgrade. I also think that CO will someday catch Limited in participants per division which might be the death of Major PF.

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I think as time goes by the brass will get more expensive but unavailable, no...

 

The FBI dropped 10mm years ago and yes 10mm brass costs more than it did when I could get 1x fired but I can still get it from several sources to feed my single stack gun.

 

Too many 40 pistols have been sold for it to disappear.

 

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1Uspsa (especially the race type classes) shouldn't worry about what cartridge is in in favor in the LE community, because that tends to change every few years and chasing them will just lead to inconsistency in our rules.

 

2 most limited shooters i know pick up brass anyway, so no change there. 

 

3 if  picking up brass, buying some to supplement is not a big deal

 

4 you could always buy a 45 limited gun, if 40 brass it too much 

 

5 if buying a little brass occasionally is too expensive for someone,  there are other divisions to shoot.

 

6 until limited numbers drop dramatically, there should not even be a consideration of a change, simply because of the amount of equipment involved 

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If 40 is dead, how come I can go down to my local Targetmaster and buy as many bulk ammo boxes filled with 40sw brass as I want for $15 each?
That might be like someone saying years ago, "if the Pontiac Aztec isnt a cool car, then why does the local dealer have rows and rows of them sitting on the lot for me to buy?"

I know there will always be a way to get the 40 brass, but if it becomes as precious as 38 super comp, I'd expect it to start hurting USPSA's manliest division. At which point [not preemptively] we ought to look at some changes. Ideas for this being the reason for this thread.

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My agency of 300 officers is still shooting 40. In fact we recently phased out the legacy 9mm and 45 guns.

 

IMHO, there are so many 40 guns out there, that there will still be plenty of brass long after every agency has stopped using it. I wouldn't worry.

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Bad analogy.  A lot of 40sw guns exist.  People are not going to throw them away.  As long as they keep shooting them, and they will, there will be a good supply of 40sw once-fired available. The shooters at Targetmaster are not USPSA shooters.  They are just regular folks who reserve a lane for an hour, buy the ammo over the counter and go shoot it.

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I buy guns for different reasons... Some to collect, some to plink, dinner for protection and some for competition

The only reason I have a 40 is USPSA limited. I would not have a 40 if it wasn't for the scoring advantage

I prefer 9mm and have 3 9mm guns to choose from but I am an occasional shooter at most and typically only on perfect days :)

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.40 is a fading caliber.   But it's way, way, way ahead of others like .357 Sig and 10mm and 38 Supercomp (or even .38 Super) in terms of chambers out there, so there will be brass pretty much forever.  Yeah, you might have to buy it new like the .30 Mauser and Supercomp and .440 Corbon shooters do, and then pick it up, but it'll be available as long there are chambers for it.  A few reloads (and who shoots Major .40 that doesn't reload?) and the cost of brass is negligible.

 

That said, the world is moving rapidly towards 9x19 for everything else, so if I were king of USPSA, I'd raise Minor PF to 135 and let C's score 4 points and drive on.  Major would be gone in a few years all on it's own and nobody would mourn its demise.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, shred said:

so if I were king of USPSA, I'd raise Minor PF to 135 and let C's score 4 points and drive on.  Major would be gone in a few years all on it's own and nobody would mourn its demise.

 

I never looked at it that way. I looked at it being better to split minor and major separate in Limited but if Major is going away on it's own your idea sounds better. 
 

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11 minutes ago, shred said:

That said, the world is moving rapidly towards 9x19 for everything else, so if I were king of USPSA, I'd raise Minor PF to 135 and let C's score 4 points and drive on.  Major would be gone in a few years all on it's own and nobody would mourn its demise.

 

 

I'm guessing that lots of young girls and really elderly people would support this (i.e., folks who can't handle shooting major).  🐟

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5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I'm guessing that lots of young girls and really elderly people would support this (i.e., folks who can't handle shooting major).  🐟

 

For sure!!

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46 minutes ago, shred said:

.40 is a fading caliber.   But it's way, way, way ahead of others like .357 Sig and 10mm and 38 Supercomp (or even .38 Super) in terms of chambers out there, so there will be brass pretty much forever.  Yeah, you might have to buy it new like the .30 Mauser and Supercomp and .440 Corbon shooters do, and then pick it up, but it'll be available as long there are chambers for it.  A few reloads (and who shoots Major .40 that doesn't reload?) and the cost of brass is negligible.

 

That said, the world is moving rapidly towards 9x19 for everything else, so if I were king of USPSA, I'd raise Minor PF to 135 and let C's score 4 points and drive on.  Major would be gone in a few years all on it's own and nobody would mourn its demise.

 

 

 

 

Would that be for all divisions or just Limited? If it’s all, we just killed Production and Open. 

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