If .40 dies one day, what to do with Limited?

[TrackCage]

16 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

Would that be for all divisions or just Limited? If it’s all, we just killed Production and Open. 

Production and carry optics would be unaffected since all competitors use the same PF. This only messes with divisions that have major/minor. Arguably open is also unaffected since most guys will still run hot-ish ammo to make gas

[zzt]

My home club has a 26 lane pistol range.  You are requested to police your brass, and there are buckets to deposit it in if you don't want it.  There is almost never any 40sw brass in the bucket.  Mostly it never makes it to the bucket because someone always wants it.  When it does make it to the bucket, it's gone shortly.  Same thing for 45ACP.

[racerba]

4 hours ago, obsessiveshooter said:

38 super comp is not common at all around here, virtually everyone shoots 9 major.  I have trouble imagining Open shooters being happy where the only way to take advantage of major PF was with 38 super comp.  Did you read my original post???  I'm talking about brass. You need regular people buying .40 ammo at walmart so that there is a brass supply for us comp shooters to reload .40.   No one is buying new brass that I know of.   

yes...i'm also talking about brass.  people shot open with 38 super, super comp, tj, etc...none of which were readily available in stores...  people still shot Open with them...  I doubt very much that 40 will disappeared from the shelves...even 10 years down the road... .38 spl are not being used in many of the PDs either, and they are still available...

[HCH]

1 hour ago, TrackCage said:

Production and carry optics would be unaffected since all competitors use the same PF. This only messes with divisions that have major/minor. Arguably open is also unaffected since most guys will still run hot-ish ammo to make gas

 

But if Minor goes Major in one division, why shouldn’t it do the same in the others? 

 

And if every Production shooter out there then has the ability to load their mags to capacity and make Major in Limited, I think Production would vanish. Fast. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by HCH

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, shred said:

That said, the world is moving rapidly towards 9x19 for everything else, so if I were king of USPSA, I'd raise Minor PF to 135 and let C's score 4 points and drive on.  Major would be gone in a few years all on it's own and nobody would mourn its demise.

 

 

 

 

If it comes to that I'd rather see major get dropped and leave minor as it is. Giving minor more points with so little recoil is just going to raise HF's and make everything a hose fest. It would dumb down the game IMO.

[motosapiens]

6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

If it comes to that I'd rather see major get dropped and leave minor as it is. Giving minor more points with so little recoil is just going to raise HF's and make everything a hose fest. It would dumb down the game IMO.

agreed. I am against *any* such changes, but if I were changing something, it would be to go minor-only, so people would have to learn to shoot.

[shred]

It wouldn't be the same as Major-- Major would still get 2 points for a D vs 1.  It would speed up the minor game at first but its not a big deal.  If HFs go through the roof, MDs would just start pushing targets back and partial-ing them.  That already happens when you have a Major-favoring MD or a minor-favoring MD that puts up hose-fests, but it would make the discrimination less.

 

In any case, mostly A's is what would be needed to win, just look at the C count for top Major PF shooters at a major match.

 

Pretty much everyone that does "real-world practical" shooting is switching from 40 to 9, but they aren't switching to 125PF 9, they're switching to 140-150 PF 9, because it works as well as .40 did, so why not follow that trend?

 

Anyway, as the man says "Nevah Gonna Happen", but its fun to argue about.

 

[truespode]

39 minutes ago, HCH said:

And if every Production shooter out there then has the ability to load their mags to capacity and make Major in Limited, I think Production would vanish. Fast. 

 

The capacity limit in production is why I don't shoot it anymore... if I wanted to shoot 10 rounds in a non-restrictive state I would shoot IDPA (not that there is anything wrong with that).

[Racinready300ex]

52 minutes ago, shred said:

It wouldn't be the same as Major-- Major would still get 2 points for a D vs 1.  It would speed up the minor game at first but its not a big deal.  If HFs go through the roof, MDs would just start pushing targets back and partial-ing them.  That already happens when you have a Major-favoring MD or a minor-favoring MD that puts up hose-fests, but it would make the discrimination less.

 

In any case, mostly A's is what would be needed to win, just look at the C count for top Major PF shooters at a major match.

 

Pretty much everyone that does "real-world practical" shooting is switching from 40 to 9, but they aren't switching to 125PF 9, they're switching to 140-150 PF 9, because it works as well as .40 did, so why not follow that trend?

 

Anyway, as the man says "Nevah Gonna Happen", but its fun to argue about.

 

 

What is "real world practical shooting"?  And how many people do that? Personally the trend I would follow is the trend of divisions with major scoring as it is being pretty popular so why change it.

 

Standard 9mm off the self needs to make minor, if it doesn't making this change would just hurt the sport. Most poeple who don't reload go to walmart and buy the cheapest ammo they can. that's not likely to consistently make PF if minor were increased.

 

I think it's likely we'll see some change in major/minor scoring in the future. It seems like a lot of newbs would rather see Limited changed minor so they don't need a new gun. The rules are constantly changing, there is talk on FB that thumb rests will be legal in production and CO soon. Who thought PCC or CO was going to be a thing 5 years ago. 5 years from now the sport could look vary different. There is risk associated with a rule set that is constantly changing, ask IDPA how that's working out for them.

[ATLDave]

Huh.  It's almost as if some people haven't noticed that the tactical "caliber wars" go back and forth over time.  

[HCH]

52 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

Huh.  It's almost as if some people haven't noticed that the tactical "caliber wars" go back and forth over time.  

 

 Next thing you know, we’ll all need a 50 GI for a carry gun. 

[gdboytyler]

On 5/30/2019 at 11:40 AM, HCH said:

 

But if Minor goes Major in one division, why shouldn’t it do the same in the others? 

 

And if every Production shooter out there then has the ability to load their mags to capacity and make Major in Limited, I think Production would vanish. Fast. 

 

I disagree with this premise.  I remember one of the main reasons that Production got created was to create a division where plastic guns could be competitive.  Dudes shooting Glocks did NOT want to compete against dudes shooting double stack STI's with single-action triggers.

 

If major/minor scoring got eliminated and mag limits got eliminated (except for length), guys would still want to segregate single action guns from the other guns.  

[IronicTwitch]

9 major in Limited, heavy bullets with fast powder. 147gr @ 1150 fps is only 100 fps faster than most self defense loads advertise. I'm sure someone with a ballistics background can tell us why this is a very bad idea.

 

Brand: Doubletap
Product Code:9mm+P 147gr FMJ 

Bullet : Montana Gold Full Metal Jacket Flat Point

Ballistics : 147gr @ 1135fps / 421ft. lbs. from a G17.
Glock 19 velocity - 1120fps.

Edited June 1, 2019 by IronicTwitch

[HCH]

3 hours ago, gdboytyler said:

 

I disagree with this premise.  I remember one of the main reasons that Production got created was to create a division where plastic guns could be competitive.  Dudes shooting Glocks did NOT want to compete against dudes shooting double stack STI's with single-action triggers.

 

If major/minor scoring got eliminated and mag limits got eliminated (except for length), guys would still want to segregate single action guns from the other guns.  

 

Meh. CZ is the cool kid in production right now. Glock has won Limited and L10 nationals more than once and with more than one shooter. SS minor and Production is a toss up at most major matches. 

 

If 9mm is allowed to go Major in Limited, Production is dead. 

[Novagunner]

It is going to be a while before 40 is gone. Surplus brass will dry up a bit as a lot of LEOs go to 9mm but with so many commercial guns in the caliber, we might have a bit more hunting for it but that is about it.

[36873687]

I can see we’re u are going. At my clubs use to be 30 major 40 guys. Now it’s down to 3 people

[teros135]

3 hours ago, 36873687 said:

I can see we’re u are going. At my clubs use to be 30 major 40 guys. Now it’s down to 3 people

 

Is that because everybody got on the Open bandwagon? 

 

[zzt]

4 hours ago, 36873687 said:

I can see we’re u are going. At my clubs use to be 30 major 40 guys. Now it’s down to 3 people

 I'm not too surprised at that.  Probably half went to Open and the other half to CO.  Three years ago I moved from Limited to Open, because I was having so much trouble seeing the sights.  If I were doing that today, I'd go to CO.  A good CZ and 140 mags loaded to capacity lets you stage plan just Like Limited.  Plus you have the dot and you can use factory ammo.

[36873687]

3 hours ago, teros135 said:

 

Is that because everybody got on the Open bandwagon? 

 

Yes that’s part of it. 

[36873687]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

 I'm not too surprised at that.  Probably half went to Open and the other half to CO.  Three years ago I moved from Limited to Open, because I was having so much trouble seeing the sights.  If I were doing that today, I'd go to CO.  A good CZ and 140 mags loaded to capacity lets you stage plan just Like Limited.  Plus you have the dot and you can use factory ammo.

Idk I played in carry optics with a Glock it wasn’t as fun as limited. But I didn’t really give it a chance. Open is on the 110% fun level. 

[teros135]

9 minutes ago, 36873687 said:

Open is on the 110% fun level. 

 

[shred]

.40 isn't going away until it's obsoleted by the rules.

 

Back when I started, 40 was a rare bird (the STI and Para .40s weren't even Limited legal yet), so the .40 shooters would hunt and pick brass like Open shooters going after Supercomp and each squad had 2 or 3 assigned brass pickers per shooter along with taping and scoring.

 

Then .40 got cheap and the .40 shooters decided they didn't want to pick it up anymore, so they couldn't be bothered to pick up anyone else's brass either.

 

And thus ended brassing per shooter.

 

[Jeff226]

On 5/30/2019 at 11:02 AM, motosapiens said:

My agency of 300 officers is still shooting 40. In fact we recently phased out the legacy 9mm and 45 guns.

 

IMHO, there are so many 40 guns out there, that there will still be plenty of brass long after every agency has stopped using it. I wouldn't worry.

 

ooohhh, 300 officers...BFD.

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

ooohhh, 300 officers...BFD.

 

Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I didn't mean to sound like I was bragging or something. That certainly wasn't my intention. Just wanted to point out that some federal agencies are not doing the same trendy 9mm dance as others, and in fact are consolidating *away* from 9mm. But of course that can change with the political winds.

[Jeff226]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I didn't mean to sound like I was bragging or something. That certainly wasn't my intention. Just wanted to point out that some federal agencies are not doing the same trendy 9mm dance as others, and in fact are consolidating *away* from 9mm. But of course that can change with the political winds.

 

The caliber wars are over, diversity is in full swing, and the insignificant holdout agencies will eventually get swept up into one of the bigger agencies' purchase contracts.  If HRT can get the job done with a Glock 17 then I am not sure why the Amtrak Police can't do the same.  In the meantime we can thank the 300 officer agencies for their massive contributions to the 40 cal brass supply.

 

Which 9mm are you consolidating away from?

Edited June 2, 2019 by Jeff226