the evil 2nd shot

[Blackstone45]

Great thread, helped answer some questions I had recently about how I could shoot fast splits when my sights felt like they were taking an age to come back down

[pskys2]

The difference between Great shooters and good shooters is the good shooter practices until they get it right, the Great shooter practices until they can't get it wrong.

[dgrdvm]

On 7/1/2019 at 2:13 PM, MikeBurgess said:

As much as everyone says otherwise when we shoot splits faster than about .2 we are NOT seeing the second sight picture then deciding to shoot,we are deciding to shoot the second before the first shot breaks at a point in the future when we think from experience that the sights will be back where we want them to be, what we can do is while acting on the assumption that the sights will be back is watch the sights and then know if the assumptions we made were correct. 

 

 

I would agree that shooting that fast we do not "consciously" see and decide the second sight picture, but what do you think about the theory that the guys that are studs, and have been doing this a long time are at a place where the mind recognizes the correct picture and acts, with out being told ? I know from years of martial arts training and fighting,  there were times when sparing that I would block and counter and hit a precise spot with out really deciding to do that. I had been fighting at a high level for years at that point, and it was not for every possibly situation, but hey, common things happen commonly,  and shooting 2 shots on a USPSA target happens a lot for some of us. I watched Max Michel shoot, and while he moves fast, it was not like he was sprinting everywhere. But dam, that gun was up and steady and firing SO fast when he saw a target, including the second shot. I tried ( and failed) to replicate that , and I think it was because I still had to " consciously" decide it was OK to shoot. I know he is gifted, but I do not think his eye and brain process that much faster. I would venture that he is going " no mind" once the buzzer goes off, and that is likely due to millions of correct reps burned in to his brain.

 

Or do you think I am crazy ? 

Edited July 12, 2019 by dgrdvm
misspell

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, dgrdvm said:

I would agree that shooting that fast we do not "consciously" see and decide the second sight picture, but what do you think about the theory that the guys that are studs, and have been doing this a long time are at a place where the mind recognizes the correct picture and acts, with out being told ? I know from years of martial arts training and fighting,  there were times when sparing that I would block and counter and hit a precise spot with out really deciding to do that. I had been fighting at a high level for years at that point, and it was not for every possibly situation, but hey, common things happen commonly,  and shooting 2 shots on a USPSA target happens a lot for some of us. I watched Max Michel shoot, and while he moves fast, it was not like he was sprinting everywhere. But dam, that gun was up and steady and firing SO fast when he saw a target, including the second shot. I tried ( and failed) to replicate that , and I think it was because I still had to " consciously" decide it was OK to shoot. I know he is gifted, but I do not think his eye and brain process that much faster. I would venture that he is going " no mind" once the buzzer goes off, and that is likely due to millions of correct reps burned in to his brain.

 

Or do you think I am crazy ? 

I don't think you are crazy, I think you are trying to explain something in a way that make sense to you.  while all brains are not created equal they all require some time to take in input make a decision about it and start an act based on the decision, the time it takes for people to do this, even very experienced people is longer than the time available between shots for anything reasonably close and open.

 

Some perspective on reaction times, at high level track meets the starting blocks have pressure sensors in them, if you press on the blocks before .1 second AFTER the gun goes off you are called for a false start. this ensures they are reacting to the gun not guessing the guns timing.

 

So lets break down a .15 split on a open target, the gun is finished cycling at about .05 seconds, so now we are at .1 seconds to see the sights, decide if they are aligned enough and press the trigger, there are way to many mental processes there to do in that amount of time.  You could possibly get close to see sight return fire but even that is super unlikely in that amount of time, but add to that any sort of decision about the sights alignment and there is no way. Luckily we get to practice this action at multiple ranges and target difficulties regularly so we are able to make predictions about what will happen in the future based on this past experience, so now we can run through our stage plans and go target by target, hard shot see 2 good sight pictures have 2 good trigger presses snap eyes to open close target fire 2 shots snap eyes to next target ect. now the fun part is while we are shooting the stage we get to watch the gun and see what is actually happening, I may have decided to fire 2 shots at the open target a fraction of a second after my eyes get to it but if I see the sights do something other than what I expect I may decide to take some corrective action, this is the decision point, not the sights returning for the second shot but what the sights did after I decided to fire the 2 shots in the first place. 

[B585]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

I don't think you are crazy, I think you are trying to explain something in a way that make sense to you.  while all brains are not created equal they all require some time to take in input make a decision about it and start an act based on the decision, the time it takes for people to do this, even very experienced people is longer than the time available between shots for anything reasonably close and open.

 

Some perspective on reaction times, at high level track meets the starting blocks have pressure sensors in them, if you press on the blocks before .1 second AFTER the gun goes off you are called for a false start. this ensures they are reacting to the gun not guessing the guns timing.

 

So lets break down a .15 split on a open target, the gun is finished cycling at about .05 seconds, so now we are at .1 seconds to see the sights, decide if they are aligned enough and press the trigger, there are way to many mental processes there to do in that amount of time.  You could possibly get close to see sight return fire but even that is super unlikely in that amount of time, but add to that any sort of decision about the sights alignment and there is no way. Luckily we get to practice this action at multiple ranges and target difficulties regularly so we are able to make predictions about what will happen in the future based on this past experience, so now we can run through our stage plans and go target by target, hard shot see 2 good sight pictures have 2 good trigger presses snap eyes to open close target fire 2 shots snap eyes to next target ect. now the fun part is while we are shooting the stage we get to watch the gun and see what is actually happening, I may have decided to fire 2 shots at the open target a fraction of a second after my eyes get to it but if I see the sights do something other than what I expect I may decide to take some corrective action, this is the decision point, not the sights returning for the second shot but what the sights did after I decided to fire the 2 shots in the first place. 

 

Glad to hear others state what I always thought was happening but didn’t know for sure.

[Joedbenson]

On 5/21/2019 at 1:27 PM, bimmer1980 said:

1. yes i see a good sightpicture. The movement in it when breaking the shot i dont see. I think it´s to fast.

 

2. I have clean and bad billdrills (2-3 Charlies) in 1,86 to 1,90 at 7 meters, depending on the grip and triggercontrol i think (i dont know which shot goes out of the A Zone)  edit: more Problems with el press- style drills.

 

3. Always  and always only the 2nd shot, the first pull is good.  

I heard Stoeger say, it's how to JERK the trigger really fast without disturbing things...

[bimmer1980]

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 10:16 PM, Joedbenson said:

I heard Stoeger say, it's how to JERK the trigger really fast without disturbing things...

And thats true !  

 

Goes much better for me using double ear protection indoors.  

[benos]

Get rid of the "second shot" idea. That's what it is - an idea. Shot and call every shot like it's the only shot you will ever fire.

[GunBugBit]

When I'm not being surgical and doing what most would call the "double tap," I know where the first shot went.  The second shot, I feel where it probably went more than I see it, though I'm watching the sights throughout the bang-bang.  This usually works, 10 yards and closer.

 

I think most of us can feel when the gun returns to where it was before the last shot, especially when very familiar with the timing of the gun.

[Blackstone45]

On 7/23/2019 at 10:20 PM, benos said:

Get rid of the "second shot" idea. That's what it is - an idea. Shot and call every shot like it's the only shot you will ever fire.

I found myself revisiting this thread after a match I shot this past weekend.

 

Is Brian saying here to wait until you have an acceptable sight picture for the second shot? Contrary to the earlier posts by the likes of MikeBurgess where you break the shot before you consciously observe a sight picture?

[MikeyScuba]

I 99% the reason  I found revo so much easier was the double action trigger forced me to slow down and see the sights. 

 

I've gotten faster with my wheelgun and I'm still working on paying more attention to my sights while trying to do everything else sooner.  I was told I won't like it as it will feel slow.  At least I know what I've got to work on.

[MikeBurgess]

4 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

I found myself revisiting this thread after a match I shot this past weekend.

 

Is Brian saying here to wait until you have an acceptable sight picture for the second shot? Contrary to the earlier posts by the likes of MikeBurgess where you break the shot before you consciously observe a sight picture?

my personal $.02 is it depends on the target, and what you have learned to see while shooting. 

 

15yd partial target,  align sights fire shot repeat as necessary 

7yd open target, see enough to start firing, then confirm sights did close enough to what you wanted them to while its happening.

 

[benos]

On 9/23/2019 at 5:49 AM, Blackstone45 said:

I found myself revisiting this thread after a match I shot this past weekend.

 

Is Brian saying here to wait until you have an acceptable sight picture for the second shot? Contrary to the earlier posts by the likes of MikeBurgess where you break the shot before you consciously observe a sight picture?

Rather than thinking about "have an acceptable sight picture," think of it like this... You must call every shot. For consistent success, the most important skill you must master - and repeat for every shot you fire - is shot calling. To call the shot means to know where the bullet will hit the target at the instant the shot fired. 

[Sparky]

A double tap is just two shots fired one after the other.  In other words two single shots and like Brian said, it's shot calling.

How many times have you RO'ed a shooter who had a Stripe Target next to an Open Target?  The Stripe will have two shots

in the middle fairly close together and the Open will have a center A hit and a center low C or even D hit.  I don't think anyone

here is crazy, we all look at things in our own way.  We see things differently.  Practice until you can't get it wrong (love that

pskys2).......  

[Distant Thunder]

On 9/25/2019 at 5:23 PM, benos said:

Rather than thinking about "have an acceptable sight picture," think of it like this... You must call every shot. For consistent success, the most important skill you must master - and repeat for every shot you fire - is shot calling. To call the shot means to know where the bullet will hit the target at the instant the shot fired. 

 

Very similar to what Coach Lengyel  would tell us. "Contrary to popular belief, practice does NOT make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."

[nikdanja]

Visual patience! Need to see the entire recoil arch on the second shot!

[MikeBurgess]

Visual patience! Need to see the entire recoil arch on the second shot!

Strong disagree

You want to just barely see the sight lift then shift your eyes to the next target. Watching it go up and come down is just a waste of time

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[bimmer1980]

6 hours ago, nikdanja said:

Visual patience! Need to see the entire recoil arch on the second shot!

no need for that. IMO 

[joerenew]

On 5/21/2019 at 1:47 PM, bimmer1980 said:

Hi everyone!

 

I still have problems with the 2nd shot. Somehow the first shot (wich goes where i want it) seems to put some stress to me so the 2nd trigger pull issn´t good.

I see weird movements in the sights when doing the 50/50 drill. After some reps it gets better, till to the point that i shoot nice and fast groups. But somehow the problem comes back after a while.

 

Any ideas to solve that problem other than train it out by shooting 100K rounds?

A good drill to practice is having someone else load your mags so you don't know where dummy rounds are. When you hit a dummy rounds if the gun jumps u know what's happening

[bimmer1980]

7 hours ago, joerenew said:

A good drill to practice is having someone else load your mags so you don't know where dummy rounds are. When you hit a dummy rounds if the gun jumps u know what's happening

Thanks! But thats a "drill" to show the problem, not to solve it.

 

The problem is solved meanwhile. Double plugging and many rounds helped to get rid of the subconscious stress which led to cramping.

[Intheshaw1]

On 1/2/2020 at 3:20 PM, joerenew said:

A good drill to practice is having someone else load your mags so you don't know where dummy rounds are. When you hit a dummy rounds if the gun jumps u know what's happening

If you don't have a buddy that day, what I do is load a bunch of mags prior to leaving for the range with the dummy round at different points and the mix up the mags.  By the time I get to the range, I don't remember where they are at in the mags.

[joerenew]

On 1/3/2020 at 12:18 AM, bimmer1980 said:

Thanks! But thats a "drill" to show the problem, not to solve it.

 

The problem is solved meanwhile. Double plugging and many rounds helped to get rid of the subconscious stress which led to cramping.

If you do the drill until you stop making the mistake it will cure it

[bimmer1980]

6 hours ago, joerenew said:

If you do the drill until you stop making the mistake it will cure it

There can be a lot of bad repetitions until you hit a snapcap.

If you do the snapcap thing fast, theres also no way to know if you flinch, or if you do a recoil management movement after the shot. In my eyes it´s a great way to show people a flinch at slow fire. Yes, you can cure it with that. But thats mostly depeding on the person wich now understands what they are doing wrong.

It´s not a good tool to cure bad triggerpulls on .20 -.40 splits. Wich came from stress of the first shot.   

50/50 Drill is much better to cure it, at least in my experience.

[Blackstone45]

Agreed, snapcap thing is only to prove that they're flinching when they are adamant that they are not.

 

Best way I think to help fix a flinch is a lot of dry firing to build that muscle memory of only moving your trigger finger.

[robbiespratt]

Snap caps are great for showing the problem. They can be used to train the problem as well if you slow down and concentrate on every trigger pull. Dry firing for muscle memory seems to only take me so far with it. My mind knows there will be no recoil when dry firing so I have zero anticipation when I dry fire but some days it is bad when I am live firing.  I like the 50/50 drill but still my mind knows there is no second shot. The repetiton does help though.