the evil 2nd shot

[bimmer1980]

Hi everyone!

 

I still have problems with the 2nd shot. Somehow the first shot (wich goes where i want it) seems to put some stress to me so the 2nd trigger pull issn´t good.

I see weird movements in the sights when doing the 50/50 drill. After some reps it gets better, till to the point that i shoot nice and fast groups. But somehow the problem comes back after a while.

 

Any ideas to solve that problem other than train it out by shooting 100K rounds?

[DKorn]

Are you seeing an acceptable sight picture for both shots? Or are you seeing a good sight picture and then pulling the trigger twice?

 

If you do a drill with more rounds, like a bill drill or el prez, do you have the issue on only the 2nd shot, on every shot after the 1st, or on the second shot on each target for multiple target drills?

 

Do you have the issue only when drawing from the holster or always? If you start from low ready with a solid grip, do you have the same issue?

[bimmer1980]

35 minutes ago, DKorn said:

Are you seeing an acceptable sight picture for both shots? Or are you seeing a good sight picture and then pulling the trigger twice?

 

If you do a drill with more rounds, like a bill drill or el prez, do you have the issue on only the 2nd shot, on every shot after the 1st, or on the second shot on each target for multiple target drills?

 

Do you have the issue only when drawing from the holster or always? If you start from low ready with a solid grip, do you have the same issue?

1. yes i see a good sightpicture. The movement in it when breaking the shot i dont see. I think it´s to fast.

 

2. I have clean and bad billdrills (2-3 Charlies) in 1,86 to 1,90 at 7 meters, depending on the grip and triggercontrol i think (i dont know which shot goes out of the A Zone)  edit: more Problems with el pres- style drills.

 

3. Always  and always only the 2nd shot, the first pull is good.  

Edited May 21, 2019 by bimmer1980

[DKorn]

13 minutes ago, bimmer1980 said:

1. yes i see a good sightpicture. The movement in it when breaking the shot i dont see. I think it´s to fast.

 

2. I have clean and bad billdrills (2-3 Charlies) in 1,86 to 1,90 at 7 meters, depending on the grip and triggercontrol i think (i dont know which shot goes out of the A Zone)  edit: more Problems with el pres- style drills.

 

3. Always  and always only the 2nd shot, the first pull is good.  

 

Does the second shot always go the same direction relative to the first shot, or is it random?

 

Do you see movement in the sights on the second shot during dry fire, or only in live fire?

 

If you aren’t seeing the sights deviate, it’s possible that you’re blinking. Have someone stand so they can see your face while you shoot but are still in a safe place (or set up a camera) and have them watch to see if you blink when the shot goes off. 

[bimmer1980]

17 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Does the second shot always go the same direction relative to the first shot, or is it random?

 

Do you see movement in the sights on the second shot during dry fire, or only in live fire?

 

If you aren’t seeing the sights deviate, it’s possible that you’re blinking. Have someone stand so they can see your face while you shoot but are still in a safe place (or set up a camera) and have them watch to see if you blink when the shot goes off. 

Yes i see it on the dry part of the 50/50 drill. (1 hot, 1 dry) After some reps i am able to train it out, but it will come back. I dont think i blink but if, that would not be the main Problem, as i see the sights move at the dry trigger pull.

It´s some kind of subconscious stress that let me tense up after the shot. I feel relaxed but I somehow am not. I don´t have control of my finger, a bit of flinching/anticipating is in there too.

 

edit:

oh, if I flinch, it goes low left, if I don´t, it goes almost random  The sights are shaking from the bad pull. The funny thing is, i am able to even slap the trigger pretty good without moving the sights, but somehow i am not on the second shot, even if it feels like a nice pull. It´s like my body issn´t doing what he tells me he is doing.

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by bimmer1980

[HoMiE]

Is your second shot high or low of first shot? If it’s low you might be pushing trigger or anticipating recoil. If it’s high, you may just be pulling trigger twice with one sight picture. 

 

Work on 50/50 or doubles drill, start off slow and increase speed when the sights return to position with minimal hand wrist movement or gun dipping.

 

many either don’t grip gun hard enough with support hand when trying to shoot fast or they are milking the grip when trying to pull trigger fast. 

[IHAVEGAS]

Just curious, what happens if you fire 5 to 10 shots?

[bimmer1980]

15 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Just curious, what happens if you fire 5 to 10 shots?

If i do them as fast as i can (about .16) at a billdrill, they almost never go high. If i miss the A Zone it´s 80% low left Charlie´s.  

Thats anticipation, milking or/and flinching, i know.

 

But if i try to time the shot as soon as the sights are back, and i dont flinch, i do some strange triggerpulls which i only see when dryfiring.

 

I will try to double plug again. It must be some subconcious stress. Maybe it´s to loud indoors.

Edited May 22, 2019 by bimmer1980

[Hi-Power Jack]

3 hours ago, bimmer1980 said:

 Maybe it´s too loud indoors.

 

That is definitely a possibility.

 

I HATE to shoot indoors (unless it's a .22).

 

Double plugging will definitely help.    

[anonymouscuban]

Have you tried doing doubles drill while shooting video of the gun from the side?

You can then see if this is a grip issue, joint issue or if you are pushing the gun down too much to counter recoil.

Put the camera on a tripod or some other brace so it doesn't move. You can play the video in slow-mo with index points on the screen to see how everything is reacting to the shot.

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

[BillGarlandJr]

I see this problem a lot in LE circles. They will come out and for the first shot get an acceptable sight picture, and prep the trigger well, only to abandon any sort or trigger prep for the subsequent shots. What I tell them is while they don't need to do a hard prep of the trigger for each and every shot, depending on its difficulty, they do need to feel the trigger for every shot. This queue seems to help as they refine their trigger presses enough to make it more like a stroke of the trigger than a slap. Then there is the group who is a complete mess for their first shots and then somehow get it together for the shots that follow. The queue is the same though, and works most of the time.

[MemphisMechanic]

The doubles drill is what you want to practice. Skip the 50/50 one for this.

 

It‘s going to be a combination of grip and trigger control that you need to sort out, and that drill is the best for it.

 

A lot of guys misunderstand this one. Ben breaks down the actual intent and procedure in this episode of his podcast:

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[Hi-Power Jack]

On 5/21/2019 at 1:47 PM, bimmer1980 said:

  the 2nd trigger pull isn´t good.

 After some reps it gets better, till to the point that i shoot nice and fast groups. 

 

Any ideas ?

 

More reps.     

[bimmer1980]

Thanks guys, double plugging solved the problem for the most part.

[elguapo]

2 hours ago, bimmer1980 said:

Thanks guys, double plugging solved the problem for the most part.

 

Yeah I couldn't imagine shooting indoors with only ear plugs in, or worse yet only ear defenders.  Most ear defenders/muffs have a noise reduction rating (NRR) inadequate for indoor shooting.

 

BTW, remember that the combined NRR of plugs and over-the-ear protection is the highest NRR of the two plus 5 dB.

[bimmer1980]

18 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

The doubles drill is what you want to practice. Skip the 50/50 one for this.

 

It‘s going to be a combination of grip and trigger control that you need to sort out, and that drill is the best for it.

 

A lot of guys misunderstand this one. Ben breaks down the actual intent and procedure in this episode of his podcast:

 

 

 

 

Thanks a lot!

When i tried this drill, i really couldn´t understand how somehow see their sights settle und decide to shoot the shot in that time. Now i know that almost nobody can. So i´m not stupid

[bimmer1980]

9 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

Yeah I couldn't imagine shooting indoors with only ear plugs in, or worse yet only ear defenders.  Most ear defenders/muffs have a noise reduction rating (NRR) inadequate for indoor shooting.

 

BTW, remember that the combined NRR of plugs and over-the-ear protection is the highest NRR of the two plus 5 dB.

Strange thing is, i´m somehow an alien using double plugs. Almost all shooters i know (yes, they are not very good ) shoot over ears only. Many with simple Sportacs (like myself) and other small inexpensive electronics Muffs. It´s freaking loud with these things only.

[elguapo]

I prefer plugs, the cheap expanding foam kind.  Used correctly (which few people seem to know how to do by my observation) they offer the highest level of protection with the least amount of discomfort.

 

It's relatively hot this time of the year where I live (this weekend the max was in the 32 - 33°C range) and ear muffs are HOT and leave your head a sweaty mess, plus you can't wear a hat with a brim.

Edited July 1, 2019 by elguapo

[Tanders]

Foam plugs are the best.  I can't hear a thing when they're in.  They also make it easier to shoot prone stages since I tend to roll toward my strong side which can knock off overear muffs.

 

6 hours ago, elguapo said:

this weekend the max was in the 32 - 33°C range

 

Gotta be careful throwing around those Celsius numbers.  They might not let you vote in this year's election! 

[MikeBurgess]

7 hours ago, bimmer1980 said:

Thanks a lot!

When i tried this drill, i really couldn´t understand how somehow see their sights settle und decide to shoot the shot in that time. Now i know that almost nobody can. So i´m not stupid

As much as everyone says otherwise when we shoot splits faster than about .2 we are NOT seeing the second sight picture then deciding to shoot,we are deciding to shoot the second before the first shot breaks at a point in the future when we think from experience that the sights will be back where we want them to be, what we can do is while acting on the assumption that the sights will be back is watch the sights and then know if the assumptions we made were correct. 

 

 

[elguapo]

54 minutes ago, Tanders said:

Gotta be careful throwing around those Celsius numbers.  They might not let you vote in this year's election! 

 

LOL....I need to remind my Kremlin handlers to be more discreet.

[bimmer1980]

24 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

As much as everyone says otherwise when we shoot splits faster than about .2 we are NOT seeing the second sight picture then deciding to shoot,we are deciding to shoot the second before the first shot breaks at a point in the future when we think from experience that the sights will be back where we want them to be, what we can do is while acting on the assumption that the sights will be back is watch the sights and then know if the assumptions we made were correct. 

 

 

Yes i now know. It´s  impossible to make a decision in that short amount of time. I learned that lesson during the drill, but somehow there was still doubt if i did it right. 

[MikeBurgess]

2 minutes ago, bimmer1980 said:

Yes i now know. It´s  impossible to make a decision in that short amount of time. I learned that lesson during the drill, but somehow there was still doubt if i did it right. 

It is hard to sort through the noise about always seeing a sight picture vs the reality of how we actually shoot with so many saying they see their sights first every time.

[anonymouscuban]

It is hard to sort through the noise about always seeing a sight picture vs the reality of how we actually shoot with so many saying they see their sights first every time.

Yes. I've watched and listened to a lot of Stoeger and Kim over the past couple of months. It's really helped me unpack a lot of the advice that floats around. I've learned that these guys don't always see their sights. At least not how many will lead you to believe is required.

They see a blur of their sight. I'm new but at a stage in my shooting where I'm learning what I need to see for a specific distance and target to make the shot. I have learned that withing 7 yards, it's all about indexing your gun and recoil management. I still struggle with wanting to get too much confirmation at times but I'm getting there.

Doubles drill has really helped me to understand what I am capable of at varying distances. Another drill I've did recently was the Confirmation drill. Basically, it's a drill to see what type of sight confirmation is needed to get the shot you want at increasing distances.

Can you simply index?

Just see your front sight come up while being target focused?

Solid sight picture with sight focus?

I've only done it once. I found it hard just to let go and break the shot with just an index.

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

[Tanders]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

As much as everyone says otherwise when we shoot splits faster than about .2 we are NOT seeing the second sight picture then deciding to shoot,we are deciding to shoot the second before the first shot breaks at a point in the future when we think from experience that the sights will be back where we want them to be, what we can do is while acting on the assumption that the sights will be back is watch the sights and then know if the assumptions we made were correct. 

 

 

MikeBurgess is dropping some pretty great knowledge bombs.  I do almost exactly what he describes.  Inside 5 yards, I just index on targets; past that distance (when you have to actually call shots), I usually see my sights in "instant replay" on wide open targets, if that makes sense.  I break two shots as soon as the fiber is on target and then watch what the sights do during recoil; the sights are moving the entire time.  This works well 95% of the time.  For the other 5% (if I didn't see the fiber on one shot or if it was in the wrong place on the target), I will throw in a makeup just in case.

 

Don't do this on difficult partials or really long shots, though.  For hard targets, you should be consciously triggering both shots most of the time (fire, let the gun return, immediately fire again, call each shot as it's made, shoot makeups as necessary).