Magnet on belt in CO

[Sandbagger123]

i have been shooting CO . i took the pouches from my limited rig and use them.  on one of my pouches there is a magnet at the front.  i place all pouches behind the hip and the magneted one as the last.  i would told today that its not legal to have a magnet.  my understanding is its legal to have a magnet as long as its behind the hip and its not used. Using it would put me into open though.  i have never used it to slap a mag on it . all my reloads come from the pouch. 

 

i read the rule and unless i missed it it just say mags can not be retained by magnetic means, which i never did. 

 

So whats correct?

 

 

[Kraj]

Your right its legal to have but there isn't any advantage to having a magnet you can use on your belt. Asking for trouble. 

[Chili]

All good unless you use it.  I primarily shoot IPSC where I can use magnets so I don't change my rig for USPSA and have shot multiple Area and Section matches in both Production and CO with a Magnet on my rig, just not used without issue.

[StealthyBlagga]

Legal, but bear in mind that the rule does not refer to "during the stage". Folks have been busted into Open for putting their magazine temporarily on the magnet when unloading after the stage. If it were me I'd just remove it.

[Sandbagger123]

59 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

Legal, but bear in mind that the rule does not refer to "during the stage". Folks have been busted into Open for putting their magazine temporarily on the magnet when unloading after the stage. If it were me I'd just remove it.

oh yeah i know the outcome if i used the magnet any time during a match.  i was just told adamantly that its not even legal to have it on my belt.  its hard to remove the magnet because it red loctited into the stud in my plastic racer pouches. need heat to remove so it would most likely destroy the pouch. 

[elguapo]

2 hours ago, Sandbagger123 said:

 i was just told adamantly that its not even legal to have it on my belt.

 

Politely ask to be shown in the rulebook where it says so.  When the refusal or excuse comes, politely decline to remove the magnet.

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, Sandbagger123 said:

  i was just told adamantly that its not even legal to have it on my belt. 

Ugh...It’s perfectly fine to have magnet on belt as long as not used.

[mreed911]

Have?  Yes.  Use?  No.
 

I have bumped an SS shooter to Open for starting with a mag on the magnet.  "My friend gave it to me and told me it was okay."  "If he's also shooting SS, he's not your friend... "

[bret]

1 hour ago, mreed911 said:

Have?  Yes.  Use?  No.
 

I have bumped an SS shooter to Open for starting with a mag on the magnet.  "My friend gave it to me and told me it was okay."  "If he's also shooting SS, he's not your friend... "

I have seen people allowed to use magnets during the make ready or after they were finished shooting, but was told it was ok since it wasn't used during the COF, I pointed out the COF Begims at Make Ready and ends at Range is Clear.

 

I was told since it wasn't used after the beep and then after last shot it was ok.

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, bret said:

I have seen people allowed to use magnets during the make ready or after they were finished shooting, but was told it was ok since it wasn't used during the COF, I pointed out the COF Begims at Make Ready and ends at Range is Clear.

 

I was told since it wasn't used after the beep and then after last shot it was ok.

you were told wrong. something involving the COF or during the stage would be a more sensible rule, but that's not what the rule actually says. It says you can't use a magnet, period. Not at any time. Because I'm a dick, I bumped a production shooter to open at nationals for walking around with a magazine on the magnet.

[bret]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

you were told wrong. something involving the COF or during the stage would be a more sensible rule, but that's not what the rule actually says. It says you can't use a magnet, period. Not at any time. Because I'm a dick, I bumped a production shooter to open at nationals for walking around with a magazine on the magnet.

You weren't a dick, you followed the rules. 

 

Bumping a guy to open for walking around with a magazine on a magnet was a dick move though, I would have filed an arbitration on it.

 

I am aware of what the rules say and mean but the RM makes the final call, not me.

Edited April 16, 2019 by bret

[MikeBurgess]

6 minutes ago, bret said:

 

I would have filed an arbitration on it.

 

 

that would have been a nice $100 donation to the match if the RM was not successful in talking you out of it.

[motosapiens]

in retrospect, we are now in a kinder and gentler world, where we just make people move their holsters/pouches if they are too far forward, instead of bumping them to open. That would probably be the best way to handle magnets too. Just tell them to take that silly crap off before they screw up.

[DKorn]

Honestly, the rule currently doesn’t make sense. You should be allowed to do pretty much anything that’s safe as long as it doesn’t happen during the course of fire, regardless of your division. We already allow magazines in pockets forward of the hip bones prior to the beep- why not magnets? Of course, if you put a magazine on it after the beep, welcome to open! If this were allowed, I still wouldn’t run a magnet- what if a mag accidentally ends up there? (Don’t know how likely this is, but I could see a few ways it could potentially happen.)

[jcc7x7]

On ‎4‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 9:46 PM, Sandbagger123 said:

i have been shooting CO . i took the pouches from my limited rig and use them.  on one of my pouches there is a magnet at the front.  i place all pouches behind the hip and the magneted one as the last.  i would told today that its not legal to have a magnet.  my understanding is its legal to have a magnet as long as its behind the hip and its not used. Using it would put me into open though.  i have never used it to slap a mag on it . all my reloads come from the pouch. 

 

i read the rule and unless i missed it it just say mags can not be retained by magnetic means, which i never did. 

 

So whats correct?

 

 

From your description the magnet is not accessible.  Since it's between the two pouches, if I'm understanding your explanation correctly.

Since it's not accessible, it in effect is not useable, so it's not a problem.

 

In CO, it's my understanding that you have to be able to show where it is ok to have the equipment or mods you are using.

So get the rule book out and know where it says it's ok to have it as long as you don't use it.  IMO

 

D4 20 says in Part " Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means. "  Since you are not retaining a magazine with the magnet, it is a non issue!

Again IMO.

Edited April 16, 2019 by jcc7x7

[bret]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

that would have been a nice $100 donation to the match if the RM was not successful in talking you out of it.

That's ok, the arbitration panel would have to be as douchey as the R.O. and RM that upheld it, i would be willing to bet there are not that many douches in 1 match.

[DKorn]

I’d be interested to hear people’s interpretations, so:

 

If you were on the arbitration committee (or the RO), what rule would you cite as justification for moving or not moving the competitor to Open for placing a magazine on a magnet outside of the course of fire?

[MikeBurgess]

29 minutes ago, bret said:

That's ok, the arbitration panel would have to be as douchey as the R.O. and RM that upheld it, i would be willing to bet there are not that many douches in 1 match.

Not Douchey just that the Arb panel is bound by the rules to only use the rules to come to a decision. So what rule would you cite to say the RO, CRO, RM was wrong? not liking the rule is not a justification for not enforcing it or trying to make up a new rule on the spot to over ride it.

 

If you feel strongly about this then you should contact DNROI and your area director and lobby to have the rule changed to one you favor.

 

 

[DKorn]

13 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Not Douchey just that the Arb panel is bound by the rules to only use the rules to come to a decision. So what rule would you cite to say the RO, CRO, RM was wrong? not liking the rule is not a justification for not enforcing it or trying to make up a new rule on the spot to over ride it.

 

If you feel strongly about this then you should contact DNROI and your area director and lobby to have the rule changed to one you favor.

 

 

 

What rule would you cite to justify moving the shooter to Open? The only rule I can find that seems relevant to moving a competitor to Open is 6.2.5.1, which does state “during a course of fire”. Of course, the COF starts with “make ready” and ends with “range is clear”, so you couldn’t use it for make ready or to put the mag on at ULSC, which makes it essentially useless. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by DKorn
Typo

[MikeBurgess]

7 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

What rule would you cite to justify moving the shooter to Open? The only rule I can find that seems relevant to moving a competitor to Open is 6.2.5.1, which does state “during a course of fire”. Of course, the COF starts with “make ready” and ends with “range is clear”, so you couldn’t use it for make ready or to put the mag on at ULSC, which makes it essentially useless. 

After reading the rule book I would have to agree,

 

I thought there was a ruling at one point about magnets on belts in non magnet divisions but either I am miss remembering it or it has been deleted with the updated rule book. mostly I just assumed Moto would not have been wrong about something like that.

[DKorn]

Just now, MikeBurgess said:

After reading the rule book I would have to agree,

 

I thought there was a ruling at one point about magnets on belts in non magnet divisions but either I am miss remembering it or it has been deleted with the updated rule book. mostly I just assumed Moto would not have been wrong about something like that.

 

I remember being taught exactly what you and Moto have been saying in the RO class. I think there might have been a ruling related to it. With the new rulebook, all rulings are supposed to be incorporated into the rules. I guess we need to take the attitude of “If it isn’t written in the rulebook, it doesn’t matter what we’ve been told in the past.”

[Mcfoto]

D7 - 21 :

Please note that, during a match, a shooter may be required to demonstrate that their gun is in compliance with Division rules by identifying a specific rules clause or published interpretation, which authorizes any disputed modification. If the shooter cannot identify an authorizing rules clause or published interpretation, the Range Master shall rule that the modification is PROHIBITED for Carry Optics use and shall move the shooter to Open Division.

 

It could be argued "their gun" would include the rest of their equipment and that if they were out of compliance at anytime during the match, they could be moved to Open.

[MikeBurgess]

Just now, DKorn said:

 

I remember being taught exactly what you and Moto have been saying in the RO class. I think there might have been a ruling related to it. With the new rulebook, all rulings are supposed to be incorporated into the rules. I guess we need to take the attitude of “If it isn’t written in the rulebook, it doesn’t matter what we’ve been told in the past.”

Precisely 

 

this is not the first time I have found myself or others trying to enforce a no longer existent rule.

[broadside72]

It simply says magazines may not be retained by magnetic means. Does not say you can't have them. However it might not be smart if you can't 100% keep yourself from using it out of habit. 

 

Would you ding them for carrying a 171mm magazine on their belt in a mag pouch outside the COF as well in CO?

What if a CO person had to remove their optic and holstered their pistol to leave the safe area and do something outside a COF? Optics are REQUIRED per the rules.

 

So if you would not ding for those, why would you ding for retaining a mag on a magnet outside the COF?

[HCH]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

It simply says magazines may not be retained by magnetic means. Does not say you can't have them. However it might not be smart if you can't 100% keep yourself from using it out of habit. 

 

Would you ding them for carrying a 171mm magazine on their belt in a mag pouch outside the COF as well in CO?

What if a CO person had to remove their optic and holstered their pistol to leave the safe area and do something outside a COF? Optics are REQUIRED per the rules.

 

So if you would not ding for those, why would you ding for retaining a mag on a magnet outside the COF?

 

Or loading 11 rounds in a start mag in production. 

 

Are we gonna bump a guy to Open because he is shooting L10 and CO at the same match and is wearing non complaint gear for each division, while he’s shooting the other one? 

 

What happens outside the COF has no bearing on the COF. If I want to Barney up using a 33 round Glock mag out of my front pocket, the RO has no say.