bishop414 Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 23 minutes ago, HCH said: What happens outside the COF has no bearing on the COF. If I want to Barney up using a 33 round Glock mag out of my front pocket, the RO has no say. This is not correct. You should be bumped to open per D4.21.7 and D4.7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, HCH said: What happens outside the COF has no bearing on the COF. If I want to Barney up using a 33 round Glock mag out of my front pocket, the RO has no say. Using a 33 Round Glock Mag to barney with, is during the course of fire, Course of Fire begins at Make Ready. It is longer than 171.25 mm, so you shoot for no score. Edited April 17, 2019 by bret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, HCH said: ... Edited April 17, 2019 by bret double tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Mcfoto said: D7 - 21 : Please note that, during a match, a shooter may be required to demonstrate that their gun is in compliance with Division rules by identifying a specific rules clause or published interpretation, which authorizes any disputed modification. If the shooter cannot identify an authorizing rules clause or published interpretation, the Range Master shall rule that the modification is PROHIBITED for Carry Optics use and shall move the shooter to Open Division. It could be argued "their gun" would include the rest of their equipment and that if they were out of compliance at anytime during the match, they could be moved to Open. 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared handgun Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. If a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements for PCC or Open Division during the course of fire, he will shoot for no score. Walking around with a magazine on a magnet is not during the COF, if you walk up to the line and take it off before the Make Ready Command and put your mag back on after the range is clear, no bump to Open and is within the rules. Like I said bumping a guy to Open for walking around with a mag on a magnet is a dick move and I would gladly file a 3rd party appeal on it and win. Edited April 17, 2019 by bret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 4 hours ago, MikeBurgess said: Not Douchey just that the Arb panel is bound by the rules to only use the rules to come to a decision. So what rule would you cite to say the RO, CRO, RM was wrong? not liking the rule is not a justification for not enforcing it or trying to make up a new rule on the spot to over ride it. If you feel strongly about this then you should contact DNROI and your area director and lobby to have the rule changed to one you favor. Why? Walking around with a mag on a magnet is not during the COF. the rules say during COF, this is why it is good to know what the rules say and not go in what you think they say or what they mean. 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared handgun Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. If a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements for PCC or Open Division during the course of fire, he will shoot for no score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, bret said: Using a 33 Round Glock Mag to barney with, is during the course of fire, Course of Fire begins at Make Ready. It is longer than 171.25 mm, so you shoot for no score. Can you remind me what competitive advantage that offers? As in, a competitor chambers a round with an illegal magazine (for whatever division), removes said magazine, throws it back in their range bag, inserts a legal magazine into their handgun, holsters, and waits for the start signal. Sure, it may be some little nugget of a rule, but it is BS and we all know it and I’m gonna have a very hard time telling someone “Looks like you’re just here for fun because you loaded your gun incorrectly.” Edited April 17, 2019 by HCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, HCH said: Can you remind me what competitive advantage that offers? Competitive advantage has no bearing on violating an equipment rule. Only place I can recall advantage being mentioned is on foot faults, where in the rules does competitive advantage apply to equipment violations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, HCH said: Can you remind me what competitive advantage that offers? As in, a competitor chambers a round with an illegal magazine (for whatever division), removes said magazine, throws it back in their range bag, inserts a legal magazine into their handgun, holsters, and waits for the start signal. Sure, it may be some little nugget of a rule, but it is BS and we all know it and I’m gonna have a very hard time telling someone “Looks like you’re just here for fun because you loaded your gun incorrectly.” Rules say you can't do it, if you don't like it, lobby for a rule change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 27 minutes ago, HCH said: Can you remind me what competitive advantage that offers? As in, a competitor chambers a round with an illegal magazine (for whatever division), removes said magazine, throws it back in their range bag, inserts a legal magazine into their handgun, holsters, and waits for the start signal. Sure, it may be some little nugget of a rule, but it is BS and we all know it and I’m gonna have a very hard time telling someone “Looks like you’re just here for fun because you loaded your gun incorrectly.” It may be a dumb rule, but it is the rule. That said, if it’s a new shooter at a club match, I’m going to say that Troy’s rule #1 (DBAD) takes priority. I’ll explain to the shooter that it’s technically not legal and that they’ll need to do something different in the future. At a larger match... you should know better. It’s not on me to avoid enforcing rules I may or may not like. It’s on you to understand the rules and avoid penalizing yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 I find no difference in this and loading 11 in a start mag in production. Should a shooter use either after the start signal, a division bump/no score is definitely warranted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, DKorn said: It may be a dumb rule, but it is the rule. That said, if it’s a new shooter at a club match, I’m going to say that Troy’s rule #1 (DBAD) takes priority. I’ll explain to the shooter that it’s technically not legal and that they’ll need to do something different in the future. At a larger match... you should know better. It’s not on me to avoid enforcing rules I may or may not like. It’s on you to understand the rules and avoid penalizing yourself. I agree, club matches are used to educate people, but being lax on rules at local matches develops bad habits for shooters and R.O.'s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 20 hours ago, motosapiens said: you were told wrong. something involving the COF or during the stage would be a more sensible rule, but that's not what the rule actually says. It says you can't use a magnet, period. Not at any time. Because I'm a dick, I bumped a production shooter to open at nationals for walking around with a magazine on the magnet. That was the right thing to do. Good job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 16 hours ago, Mcfoto said: D7 - 21 : It could be argued "their gun" would include the rest of their equipment No, a gun is a gun. Other equipment is other equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diver123 Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 36 minutes ago, HCH said: I find no difference in this and loading 11 in a start mag in production. Should a shooter use either after the start signal, a division bump/no score is definitely warranted. That's legal. Maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal. Ap d4 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 16 hours ago, Mcfoto said: D7 - 21 : Please note that, during a match, a shooter may be required to demonstrate that their gun is in compliance with Division rules by identifying a specific rules clause or published interpretation, which authorizes any disputed modification. If the shooter cannot identify an authorizing rules clause or published interpretation, the Range Master shall rule that the modification is PROHIBITED for Carry Optics use and shall move the shooter to Open Division. It could be argued "their gun" would include the rest of their equipment and that if they were out of compliance at anytime during the match, they could be moved to Open. Anyone can argue anything. But one of the very basic rules of legal argument is that words that are not defined by statue are given their common usage meaning. The word "gun" or "firearm" is not defined in the USPSA rulebook. Therefore one would use the meaning in common usage. No where in common usage or in any dictionary I've ever seen do the words "gun" or "firearm" include objects that are not a part of it nor needed for the function of the gun/firearm. You know things like holsters, belts, and mag holders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, bret said: Why? Walking around with a mag on a magnet is not during the COF. the rules say during COF, this is why it is good to know what the rules say and not go in what you think they say or what they mean. 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared handgun Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. If a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements for PCC or Open Division during the course of fire, he will shoot for no score. Interested in the answer to this. How is it a bump to Open if you walk around with a magazine on a magnet outside of the COF. What's the rule violation. Can @Motosapiens cite it since he was a self admitted dick and bumped someone to open just for that very reason? The equipment restrictions in D4 don't apply outside the course of fire. Edited April 17, 2019 by elguapo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcfoto Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Sarge said: No, a gun is a gun. Other equipment is other equipment. 12 minutes ago, elguapo said: Anyone can argue anything. But one of the very basic rules of legal argument is that words that are not defined by statue are given their common usage meaning. The word "gun" or "firearm" is not defined in the USPSA rulebook. Therefore one would use the meaning in common usage. No where in common usage or in any dictionary I've ever seen do the words "gun" or "firearm" include objects that are not a part of it nor needed for the function of the gun/firearm. You know things like holsters, belts, and mag holders. Yeah, I know I was out on a limb. Just bringing up a possible position that one might take in trying to argue the point. Back to the point, when I started in Production and putting my belt together, I thought it would be a great idea to have a magnet for my 11-round start mag to keep my hands free during the make ready. When I started becoming acquainted with the rule book, I found the "no magnet" rule and *assumed* that made the idea no bueno. It seems the opinion of the big brains on this thread, that would be okay since not using it during the course of fire. Edited April 17, 2019 by Mcfoto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Mcfoto said: Yeah, I know I was out on a limb. Just bringing up a possible position that one might take in trying to argue the point. Back to the point, when I started in Production and putting my belt together, I thought it would be a great idea to have a magnet for my 11-round start mag to keep my hands free during the make ready. When I started becoming acquainted with the rule book, I found the "no magnet" rule and *assumed* that made the idea no bueno. It seems the opinion of the big brains on this thread, that would be okay since not using it during the course of fire. Not a good idea. The course of fire starts at the “make ready” command, so using it to hold a mag during make ready is, as you said, no bueno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 I’m starting to understand why 3 gunners make fun of USPSA shooters and the arbitrary rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcfoto Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 15 minutes ago, DKorn said: Not a good idea. The course of fire starts at the “make ready” command, so using it to hold a mag during make ready is, as you said, no bueno. Right again, 8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 49 minutes ago, HCH said: I’m starting to understand why 3 gunners make fun of USPSA shooters and the arbitrary rules. All rules are arbitrary to someone. Their situation is even more f*#ked up with stuff that's a match DQ in one rulebook or match okey dokey in another rulebook or match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 2 hours ago, HCH said: I’m starting to understand why 3 gunners make fun of USPSA shooters and the arbitrary rules. 3 gun is the worst, get more guns pointed at you in a 3 gun match than on a public range full of timmies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, bret said: 3 gun is the worst, get more guns pointed at you in a 3 gun match than on a public range full of timmies. Nope. Sporting clays beats that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 There's a wacky thing called a "Glossary" near the back of the USPSA Rulebook. "Allied Equipment" is one entry worth looking at. When I was switching between USPSA and IPSC with a magnet that was/wasn't allowed, I had a small plastic cover with a bit of metal inside that I'd stick over the magnet when it wasn't allowed. Prevented any mags from sticking and problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 On 4/17/2019 at 8:05 AM, Sarge said: That was the right thing to do. Good job under what rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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