NickBlasta Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 On 4/16/2019 at 7:31 PM, bret said: Using a 33 Round Glock Mag to barney with, is during the course of fire, Course of Fire begins at Make Ready. It is longer than 171.25 mm, so you shoot for no score. Technically it depends. If you don't meet the gear requirements for your division by using a hugely illegal magazine, you go to open. You can only upgrade to shooting for no score if you're already in open. (6.2.5.1) You would have to do it, go to open, and do it again to upgrade to shooting for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 5 hours ago, broadside72 said: under what rule? What rule says mags may be retained by magnetic means in PRO/CO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 Why don’t we move people to PCC/Open for picking up a competitor’s magazine after a stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, HCH said: Why don’t we move people to PCC/Open for picking up a competitor’s magazine after a stage? Because that’s just dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 What rule says mags may be retained by magnetic means in PRO/CO?What rule says it can't be used outside of course of fire which is a subject of the quoted discussion, outside a course of fire. the rules specifically States during a course of fire then you get bumped to open or worse. Nothing about using it other times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, Sarge said: Because that’s just dumb. Just like moving a competitor to Open for having a mag on a magnet outside a COF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 2 hours ago, HCH said: Just like moving a competitor to Open for having a mag on a magnet outside a COF. Except the rule says may not be retained by magnetic means. Says nothing about COF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, Sarge said: Except the rule says may not be retained by magnetic means. Says nothing about COF. It figures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcc7x7 Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Sarge said: What rule says mags may be retained by magnetic means in PRO/CO? My concern with this thought process of Sending someone to open while they are walking from stage to stage etc is this. I see a ton of people tuck mags in there belts in front of their hips, hold them in their mouth (don't know why, but have seen it) in cell phone pockets in front of the hip while they reload or check them etc. So since all of those are not allowed for prod. /CO are we to think that as an area director you want us to bump them to open? Again these folks are not doing this during the COF etc etc. Sarge as an area director I would really like your official position on this. Cause I'm figuring open division is going to grow at every match in your area. Thank you for your response based on your Area Directorship. Please understand I'm not being a smart arsh when I say this, I really want to know as I shoot both Level 1 and 2 matches, on a regular basis, in the area you have authority over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 Except the rule says may not be retained by magnetic means. Says nothing about COF.Actually the equipment requirements in the Appendix are enforced during the COF only. Hence the 6.5.2.1(?) wording that says "during a course of fire" when assessing competitor equipment for possible bump to open or no-score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 25 minutes ago, Sarge said: Except the rule says may not be retained by magnetic means. Says nothing about COF. So once again: we have a competitor signed up in limited and CO at a level 1 match. Are we going to move him to Open (twice) for walking around with equipment that does not satisfy the requirements of the other division, while he is not shooting? Pretty much anything that happens before the start signal and after ULSC (equipment wise) doesn’t matter, safety not included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 The only rules I can find that mention bumping someone to Open are: 6.2.5.1, which specifically talks about failing to satisfy division requirements during the COF. Appendix D4 Item 21, which specifically states that the competitor must be able to point to the rule that authorizes a modification to their gun. Appendix D4 Special conditions 1, which states that manually lowering the hammer to half cock is not allowed in production. These last 2 also have equivalents in the CO appendix. So, although I remember being taught in the RO class that putting a magazine on a magnet at any time will result in a bump to Open from Production, I can’t find a rule to justify it. How can we as ROs expect competitors to follow unwritten rules, and how can we justify enforcing them? Isn’t the point of the new “evergreen” rulebook that there are no more separate rulings or interpretations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, broadside72 said: 14 hours ago, Sarge said: Except the rule says may not be retained by magnetic means. Says nothing about COF. Actually the equipment requirements in the Appendix are enforced during the COF only. Hence the 6.5.2.1(?) wording that says "during a course of fire" when assessing competitor equipment for possible bump to open or no-score. It's actually 6.2.5.1, but in essence you're correct. Area Director or not, Mr. Sanders is mistaken unless he can show a pertinent rule that supports his position. Edited April 19, 2019 by elguapo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 5 minutes ago, elguapo said: It's actually 6.2.5.1, but in essence you're correct. Area Director or not, Mr. Sanders is mistaken unless he can show a pertinent rule that supports his position. LOL I don't even remember if I clarified this anywhere else but I am not an Area Director. Even if I were my opinion would mean zilch. Everybody keeps coming up with assinine ways of what if what if what if to explain the appendix away. Here is another to support it. App says no compensator yet you shoot half the match and an RO notices it at lunch which is of course outside COF. Is he not bumped to Open ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 16 minutes ago, Sarge said: App says no compensator yet you shoot half the match and an RO notices it at lunch which is of course outside COF. Is he not bumped to Open ? According to the letter of the law, no. Someone would have to notice this fictitious person shooting a CoF with a pistol that violates division rules and bump him right there. I'd like your take on 6.2.5.1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 LOL I don't even remember if I clarified this anywhere else but I am not an Area Director. Even if I were my opinion would mean zilch. Everybody keeps coming up with assinine ways of what if what if what if to explain the appendix away. Here is another to support it. App says no compensator yet you shoot half the match and an RO notices it at lunch which is of course outside COF. Is he not bumped to Open ?No. Only matters if he is caught during a COF. There is no retroactive punishment. Troy had this very issue as a topic In my RO class. It sucks for everyone since the shooter had an advantage prior to getting called out but he either rectifies his equipment or gets bumped if noticed during COF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Sarge said: LOL I don't even remember if I clarified this anywhere else but I am not an Area Director. Even if I were my opinion would mean zilch. Everybody keeps coming up with assinine ways of what if what if what if to explain the appendix away. Here is another to support it. App says no compensator yet you shoot half the match and an RO notices it at lunch which is of course outside COF. Is he not bumped to Open ? I would say that in this case, because the compensator is part of the gun, he is moved to Open under Appendix D4/D7 Item 21, just like if they found his gun to be illegal for the division at chrono. The difference here is that it’s a modification to his gun rather than an issue with his belt gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 2 hours ago, DKorn said: I would say that in this case, because the compensator is part of the gun, he is moved to Open under Appendix D4/D7 Item 21, just like if they found his gun to be illegal for the division at chrono. The difference here is that it’s a modification to his gun rather than an issue with his belt gear. But wait, y’all are saying it’s not a crime unless detected during a COF. So if that’s the case he has to go to his next stage and be given make ready. Then told,” by the way you are now in Open, are you ready”. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, Sarge said: But wait, y’all are saying it’s not a crime unless detected during a COF. So if that’s the case he has to go to his next stage and be given make ready. Then told,” by the way you are now in Open, are you ready”. LOL I would say that for a non-gun related modification, it’s not until it’s during the course of fire because 6.2.5.1 specifically says during the course of fire. Item 21 doesn’t, but it specifically says gun modifications. Those (and manually decocking to half cock) are the only rules that mention moving a competitor to Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 On 4/16/2019 at 4:55 PM, bret said: i would be willing to bet there are not that many douches in 1 match. i would never take that bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcc7x7 Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 9 minutes ago, rowdyb said: i would never take that bet. Douches seem to abound!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 On 4/18/2019 at 6:01 PM, Sarge said: Because that’s just dumb. so is caring what magazine people use to barney with, or where they get it (thankfkully we fixed the 2nd part of that issue). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Cabana Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 Take a look at the latest posting on this topic from Troy at https://nroi.org/uncategorized/magnet-use-in-co-prod-ss/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcfoto Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 I'm guessing this will be a question on the re-cert test in the future... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, Lee Cabana said: Take a look at the latest posting on this topic from Troy at https://nroi.org/uncategorized/magnet-use-in-co-prod-ss/ Seems almost clear. Nothing in the rules say appendicies apply during COF. And even worse DNROI says “most” not all applies to COF. So still a goat rope for those who lean on the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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