Can we find a way to save USPSA Revo?

[Vincerama]

There's a big match coming up in Northern California (Golden Bullet). There is ONE guy signed up for revo. I think he's going to win the division.

[JakeMartens]

There are 2 signed up for the SNS 400 Indiana Section, need 3 more to have it recognized for awards.

Who wants to come shoot against BossHoss and MikeS?

https://practiscore.com/sns-400-indiana-section-championship/register

[J_Allen]

I think these last two posts might hold the answer to more participation - getting the word out to others already in the game that have the equipment, but for some reason have drifted into another division (rather than trying to recruit new shooters). I would definitely sign up for revolver if I knew there was more competition, but it is hard being one of the first, not knowing if anyone else will sign up or not.

[rowdyb]

Make Revo registration half the normal price, more people will sign up. Stop giving a discount to juniors and give it to the revo shooters.

Edited March 8, 2019 by rowdyb

[pete627]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

Make Revo registration half the normal price, more people will sign up. Stop giving a discount to juniors and give it to the revo shooters.

+1 Wow!! Good stuff coming out of this thread!!   

[JakeMartens]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

Make Revo registration half the normal price, more people will sign up. Stop giving a discount to juniors and give it to the revo shooters.

 

2 minutes ago, pete627 said:

+1 Wow!! Good stuff coming out of this thread!!   

 

Revolver shooters shoot the same targets, require the same amount of RO's etc in a match, what's next discounts for L10 and Single Stack?

Matches are selling out, MD's do not need to throw discounts to get attendance up. There are matches that are raising entry fees to see where the tipping point is

in attendance. The cost of hotels, supplies, ranges and just getting staff to work a match has gone up.

 

Revolver is as active as revolver shooters want it to be.

There are more clubs, more matches and more shooters then ever before, but wheel gunners are not coming out

As far as big sponsors for Revolver Division..Smith&Wesson is out, their current leadership is not interested in 

supporting the division or matches.   Outside of fielding a team it has yet to be seen if Ruger is going to jump in on a bigger level.

Last year the Revolver Division for Nationals was sponsored by Hogue, and that was 100% because of Art Leach, however he is now retired.

 

When USPSA hits the ground for a Nationals we have to weigh the cost of stand alone events. It takes 5 paid entries for every one staff.

Every extra day we have staff at the range our cost is about $15000 or more depending on the location (lodging, per diem, food, supplies etc)

So to put on a stand alone Revolver Nationals, one day match actually adds two nights of lodging for most RO's, an additional day of range expense, supplies, and everything else that

goes into a Nationals, plus not many people want to shoot that many stages in one day, so what would attendance look like? 60-70, 80 people?

If there were 100 paid entries at the regular Nationals entry fee for a stand alone match following the same model, 3 days with 18 stops, average of 4 RO per bay

Match fees would be $28500, expense would be $40-45000 if it was added to existing match, $100k if it were stand alone. (The difference here is RO travel reimbursement, if they are already at a match in a back to back format then it is one travel reimbursement)

 

There are 574 members and 233 non-members that shot a total number of 2702 activities (a paid match result) that generated about $8k in activity fee revenue

There are 1857 active current USPSA members with a Revolver Classification. Active meaning that they have shot a match in 2018. So of the 1857 only 574 shot a match last year.

 

We set up the 2019 HICAP and LOCAP and separated out Single Stack and Revolver in its own Nationals, that match will hold 432 competitors.

We are taking a gamble on what the attendance will be because the cost of it will be the same as the other matches.

 

We had already put the HICAP/LOCAP contracts into place before it was announced that the Single Stack Classic wasn't going to happen, if we knew that it may have changed how we did the schedule. That being said, if there was the traditional back to back, one day, Classic National format, how many Revo's would come out and shoot it if it were 12 stops/13-14 stages?

 

 

[pete627]

I will stand by my comment ... because ... IMHO ... I am seeing some real "outside the box" suggestions/comments in this thread that I have never seen or thought about before.

Refinement; justification etc etc ... can come later. I appreciate your post as well ... great info ... stats ... Thanks ...  

 

[RJH]

Alright,  i will make a deal with the revolver guys. If you really want to get more revolver shooters,  buy me a 627, or a an 8 shooter redhawk if they take moons, and a rig,  and i will shoot revolver exclusively  for at least 12 months,  i  will shoot many club matches,1 level 2 match and area 4, idk about nationals.  So there you go, if yall all band together the cost won't be too high,   and since i suck, yall will be able ro finish higher at some matches. I think that is a fair offer.

[MikeBurgess]

4 hours ago, JakeMartens said:

 

 

Revolver shooters shoot the same targets, require the same amount of RO's etc in a match, what's next discounts for L10 and Single Stack?

Matches are selling out, MD's do not need to throw discounts to get attendance up. There are matches that are raising entry fees to see where the tipping point is

in attendance. The cost of hotels, supplies, ranges and just getting staff to work a match has gone up.

 

Revolver is as active as revolver shooters want it to be.

There are more clubs, more matches and more shooters then ever before, but wheel gunners are not coming out

As far as big sponsors for Revolver Division..Smith&Wesson is out, their current leadership is not interested in 

supporting the division or matches.   Outside of fielding a team it has yet to be seen if Ruger is going to jump in on a bigger level.

Last year the Revolver Division for Nationals was sponsored by Hogue, and that was 100% because of Art Leach, however he is now retired.

 

When USPSA hits the ground for a Nationals we have to weigh the cost of stand alone events. It takes 5 paid entries for every one staff.

Every extra day we have staff at the range our cost is about $15000 or more depending on the location (lodging, per diem, food, supplies etc)

So to put on a stand alone Revolver Nationals, one day match actually adds two nights of lodging for most RO's, an additional day of range expense, supplies, and everything else that

goes into a Nationals, plus not many people want to shoot that many stages in one day, so what would attendance look like? 60-70, 80 people?

If there were 100 paid entries at the regular Nationals entry fee for a stand alone match following the same model, 3 days with 18 stops, average of 4 RO per bay

Match fees would be $28500, expense would be $40-45000 if it was added to existing match, $100k if it were stand alone. (The difference here is RO travel reimbursement, if they are already at a match in a back to back format then it is one travel reimbursement)

 

There are 574 members and 233 non-members that shot a total number of 2702 activities (a paid match result) that generated about $8k in activity fee revenue

There are 1857 active current USPSA members with a Revolver Classification. Active meaning that they have shot a match in 2018. So of the 1857 only 574 shot a match last year.

 

We set up the 2019 HICAP and LOCAP and separated out Single Stack and Revolver in its own Nationals, that match will hold 432 competitors.

We are taking a gamble on what the attendance will be because the cost of it will be the same as the other matches.

 

We had already put the HICAP/LOCAP contracts into place before it was announced that the Single Stack Classic wasn't going to happen, if we knew that it may have changed how we did the schedule. That being said, if there was the traditional back to back, one day, Classic National format, how many Revo's would come out and shoot it if it were 12 stops/13-14 stages?

 

 

Jake

 

thank you for this info, it is grate to have actual participation numbers like that. on average a revo shooter shot 3.35 matches in revo for the year thats not a great number, I only shot 7 so I cant complain too much

(it makes me sad that L10 has over twice the participation of revo)

 

 

Edited March 8, 2019 by MikeBurgess

[rowdyb]

We're just giving ideas, not codifying uspsa law and match management into stone. into stone. If the sole goal, as stated, is to increase major match participation in Revo alone, then cutting the price in half would do it. There would have to be sacrfices in other areas, it's not my judgement in this case to see if the trade off is valid.

 

And juniors shoot the same number of targets and more of them shoot matches, so giving them a discount is more detrimental than what I propose for revo, so I don't totally buy the cost issue. But we think it is OK under the guise of "growing the sport". So then, what do we want to grow by offering discounts? Kids or Revo shooters?

 

Now, just as me, myself and I well that's a different story. Gospel according to Rowdy I would just kill the whole division. Or imply its death by making it optional at matches.

Edited March 8, 2019 by rowdyb

[pete627]

7 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

> snip <

We're just giving ideas, not codifying uspsa law

> snip <

Eggzackly!! AND I think USPSA has already helped revolver a great deal. 

Personally ... I would have "never" bought an 8 shot revolver if USPSA had not changed the rules (Jan 2014 IIRC).

I would still be shooting ICORE w/ a model 10 and jet loaders.

IMHO it (the 8 shot and everything that goes with it) would not have been worth the trouble/expense just to shoot in ICORE.  

[RJH]

I can't believe none of y'all are buying me a revolver, I give you a %100 guaranteed way to increase participation and no one is taking me up on it.  IDK how bad y'all really want to up the numbers....

[radny97]

52 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

We're just giving ideas, not codifying uspsa law and match management into stone. into stone. If the sole goal, as stated, is to increase major match participation in Revo alone, then cutting the price in half would do it. There would have to be sacrfices in other areas, it's not my judgement in this case to see if the trade off is valid.

 

And juniors shoot the same number of targets and more of them shoot matches, so giving them a discount is more detrimental than what I propose for revo, so I don't totally buy the cost issue. But we think it is OK under the guise of "growing the sport". So then, what do we want to grow by offering discounts? Kids or Revo shooters?

 

Now, just as me, myself and I well that's a different story. Gospel according to Rowdy I would just kill the whole division. Or imply its death by making it optional at matches.

 

Uhhh i thought this thread was about saving revolver. Not killing it.

[J_Allen]

Alright, so now I feel obligated to pad the statistics mentioned above, and am officially the first revolver shooter registered for area 3. I know I am no competition for the rest of you, but I’ll give it a shot if anyone else wants to join in the fun. I promise you I’ll no longer be D class by August (aiming for B). If nothing else, you are now one step closer towards being recognized.

[Vincerama]

13 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Make Revo registration half the normal price, more people will sign up. Stop giving a discount to juniors and give it to the revo shooters.

 

Dang, pretty simple right there! 

 

I'm ready to jump into revo actually. Got most of the stuff. I did one ICORE and it was darned fun.

[Vincerama]

If all else fails, go low brow ... Good looking ladies in Daisy Dukes in revo-only squads.

[JohnRodriguez]

I'm kind of curious how the area 2 match can be USPSA approved and registration hasn't even opened (April 29th) and they have limited 10 and revolver already excluded from the match.   it's hard to keep a division alive when it can't even get started at a area championship.

[JakeMartens]

11 hours ago, JohnRodriguez said:

I'm kind of curious how the area 2 match can be USPSA approved and registration hasn't even opened (April 29th) and they have limited 10 and revolver already excluded from the match.   it's hard to keep a division alive when it can't even get started at a area championship.

Appendix A2, which is sometimes misunderstood, allows a match to announce what divisions will be included.

As I understand it was so that there could be Stand alone division matches i.e. Revolver Nationals, or Factory Gun Classic etc.

The second part of Appendix A2 refers to the participation levels to recognize a division (class and category) by match level.

The recognize part in this appendix refers to awarding Area or National Champion and the earned slots that go with it.

 

Unfortunately the MD for Area 2 is within the rules, right or wrong, but are using the participation level to decide to not even allow it, which is not what the intention of the appendix is. I would recommend contacting the Area 2 Director about your question.

 

 

 

 

[Rvolvrwest]

A younger guy has sparked interest in Revo by shooting it with a full 8-shot setup w/moons recently. Sparked my interest. Everyone at the match were all talking about how cool the rig is.

 

After he started, an old timer brought a another full rig out, but the firing pin was bad and all anyone saw was the struggle.That's all people see: the struggle. Long reload, lowest round count (no Barney), and stages built for high cap at local matches. 

 

I think mitigating that struggle with dots would go farthest. Some older gentleman that might come back if they could just see.

 

I, for the most part, see Lim 10, Production, and Single Stack as loosely competing with each other. Revo is forced to compete only with itself since it's already hard use, but then you have to decide between a 33% increase in ammo (that also fits arrays) or major scoring. 

 

Basically, the outside vision of revolver division is that it's for hardcore enthusiast types that don't mind talking a beating.

[NoSteel]

I’d like to see Optic mounted Revolvers be allowed to shoot in carry optics division classifications..  Being forced to Open it’s just not possible to be competitive.  At least in CO you wouldn’t need to get into an equipment race and your shooting minor pf like everyone else.  Yes,  the change to 141 mags allows more rounds to your 8 but time your reloads right and you may be able to win a stage or 2..  For most of us,  that’s not gonna happen in open..

 

For those who think Revolver is dead and the younger shooters have no interest in the sport,  follow this young man.....

https://m.facebook.com/pg/JW-Aguirre-competitive-shooter-1558460381056199/videos/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0

Edited March 9, 2019 by NoSteel

[JakeMartens]

I do not think adding optics to Revolver will do anything for increase participation, I think it would actually hurt.

Current competitors may not want to have the added cost of now having to get an optic

The cost of entry for newer competitors is going to be higher and the competitors that didn't switch to 8 rounds are not going

to dust off their 625's to get 627/929's now to add an optic.

 

I think that there are some other changes that could be done that might help Revolver/L10 and Single Stack with regards to max round counts at level 1 and 2 matches

and participation levels for Area matches in Appendix A2

[alecmc]

44 minutes ago, JakeMartens said:

I do not think adding optics to Revolver will do anything for increase participation, I think it would actually hurt.

Current competitors may not want to have the added cost of now having to get an optic

The cost of entry for newer competitors is going to be higher and the competitors that didn't switch to 8 rounds are not going

to dust off their 625's to get 627/929's now to add an optic.

 

I think that there are some other changes that could be done that might help Revolver/L10 and Single Stack with regards to max round counts at level 1 and 2 matches

and participation levels for Area matches in Appendix A2

 

I agree with Jake here, there is no place for an optic in regular old revolver division. I'm still a fan of modifying the rules for Carry Optics to include wheel guns with an optic, If a revolver shooter wanted to shoot with a dot C.O would be the best division for him to compete in given the Minor vs Minor aspect.

 

 

 

 

[NoSteel]

For me,  it's about options.  My eyes aren't unfortunately what they used to be so an optic works and Open is what I chose to shoot with a 2011 platform.  Just a local match kinda guy but I like to shoot whatever I want to pull out of the safe.  Revolver with an optic in CO would let me switch it up and have some fun and be almost competitive 

  Maybe it's not about saving these lesser divisions,  maybe it's about retaining competitors any way you can with easy options....

[Bosshoss]

Thanks Jake for taking the time to post the data and figures.

 

Been putting off posting for a few days because well I don't have any answers. Lots of opinions and ideas in this thread.

I personally don't feel rule changes like optics, etc. are going to make any difference. Yeah a few want them but some don't so it would be a wash in the numbers.

 

Forget the 6 shot speedloader as increasing numbers. While there are millions of these guns out there the owners are not going to just start showing up with them. In fact I have NEVER heard 1 person say that they wanted to bring out the old model 10 or whatever and speedloaders to try a match with it. NEVER

 

Lower entry fee for revolver? 

The entry fee is a small portion of the cost of shooting matches. The travel and motels and equipment and ammo are much bigger than the entry fee's. I'm retired and I can only afford to shoot so many major matches a year so while money is very important to me, half price entry wouldn't make any difference to me  about attending a match. BTW you know you can shoot most matches for free right? Just sign up for staff.

 

Reduce the minimum number of shooters at majors for trophies? 

I probably shouldn't even answer this but this is just my opinion. I have been playing this game over 30 years and been a USPSA member on and off for 28 years. I really don't care about trophies that much. I have some that I'm proud of and some that don't really mean anything.

I don't feel that lowering the minimum would change the turnout much if any. Many of the Majors I have shot I am the only revolver or 1 of 2 -3. I never thought about switching to another division(even with no chance of the division being recognized). Why? because I LIKE shooting the revolver and like the challenge, not so I have a chance at a trophy. Would I like to have more revolver shooters at the matches? of course I would but even if they don't show I will still be there as long as my hands hold out.

 

I personally don't want any special treatment for revolvers. Just put stages on the ground that follow the rules and let me figure it out.

I have heard the MOUTHS(you know the ones that talk better than they shoot) blame revolver for the 8 rounds from one position rule when this rule has nothing to do with revolver since it was the rule when we were shooting 6 shot guns.

I here revolver called a hider division(always by someone that has never shot revolver) and lowering the minimum number of shooters would make this worse. Not that I care what those people think. I always tell them I'm not hiding you know where to find me.

 

AT the local matches I find plenty of competition  as I look at the overalls and I know the production and SS and limited shooters that are always close to me in the finish and see how I did against them.

 

I have offered my backup gun and equipment and ammo to anyone that wants to try revolver and one person has taken me up on it and it was when his gun broke and he didn't have anything else to shoot so he shot it for one match. One person over several years.

 

JMO

 

 

 

 

[FlIceman]

The way to save revolver is to reward the people who shoot it, ToolGuy mentioned it earlier in this thread.

Recognize the class not only the division, award first D and first C and so on. You can't expect someone to invest time and money in a division that may or may not be recognized.

It doesn't have to be a plaque it could be a coin or medallion, something to say I was here and did this.

People need something to strive for.