Can we find a way to save USPSA Revo?

[RJH]

1 minute ago, IHAVEGAS said:

There really aren't any hard shots or fast movers on classifiers and you don't have to do the one hand classifiers. For me that is where the cheese is binding.

I shot the classifiers put in front of me, didn't cherry pick.  It has been a while, but there could have been a  one hander or two for sure. And fast movers, tight shots,  and such have never been an issue, with a modicum  of trigger control. If i remember correctly revolver was the division where i shot my first "a" class level classifier.  And i am almost positive that I made "b" in revolver before i did in limited.  Cause it ain't harder, just different and everyone has the same handicap

[MikeBurgess]

I wouldn't be alienated, how about we put it to a vote about it?  I'd be curious.
 
I get what you are getting at, given that logic however why not dump the 8 shooters and make it 6 shooters only and speed(?) loaders. lol  Seems a few here got alienated by that.
 
At this point the patient doesn't have a heartbeat and we are well into heroic measures territory.

I disagree that the patient is dying. Locally we get 3 to 5 Revo a match. after years of 0 to 2.

If revo went optic I would have to get an optic to be competative, fir me that's probably fine, but like the perceived need to run a 2011 in limited or a steel framed DA in production everyone would feel the need a optic to play revo, and looking at ICORE open is less popular than iron sights by a bunch (limited, l6, classic) so while you may attract a few I'm am pretty sure you would loose more

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[Alaskan454]

10 pages later, and I think we're still on the same conclusions.

 

1. Don't change the equipmemt rules.  

 

2. Consider revising the minimum number of competitors to recognize a division win.  I'd say 5 is reasonable for the division winner to be recognized.  I've been in tight races with only 3-4 Revos at a match.  It all depends on how good the other shooters are.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Alaskan454

[JakeMartens]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

IDK why you quoted me, my idea has no mention of optics on revolvers, so, maybe read what i wrote, then formulate a new response.  I have shot revolver, shooting a stage is not harder, it is just slower.  Once again,g o back and read what i actually wrote

Because saying a classifier is legal or not has nothing to do with the Divison or equipment in it.

Any change to a Divison can have an effect on the High Hit Factors for that Divison.

So 6 vs 8, moon clips vs loaders, irons vs optics, major vs minor, all can have an effect, positive and negative, and needs to be considered.

When 8 round was allowed there was no consideration for classifier stages that had more than 6 rounds, so there were High Hit Factors that were way off.

 

 

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

I shot the classifiers put in front of me, didn't cherry pick.  It has been a while, but there could have been a  one hander or two for sure. And fast movers, tight shots,  and such have never been an issue, with a modicum  of trigger control. If i remember correctly revolver was the division where i shot my first "a" class level classifier.  And i am almost positive that I made "b" in revolver before i did in limited.  Cause it ain't harder, just different and everyone has the same handicap

Classifying higher in revolver doesn't mean it's not hard it means it's not graded on the same scale, just like limited and open and every other division.
Actually the revo HHF have been messed up for a while and the new ones have super low HHF one one of them I have a score that was averaged into the top 10 to set the HHF and I have a Mike on it, shot it again at a match Saturday with another Mike and shot 90% or so again.

Hit factor is the game anything that raises the hit factor you can shoot makes it easier anything that lowers it makes it harder. Revos seem to shoot the lowest hit factor per skill level of any division thus they are harder to shoot in our game.

I'm beating this to death because "its hard " is what I hear when trying to talk guys into it.



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[RJH]

4 minutes ago, JakeMartens said:

Because saying a classifier is legal or not has nothing to do with the Divison or equipment in it.

Any change to a Divison can have an effect on the High Hit Factors for that Divison.

So 6 vs 8, moon clips vs loaders, irons vs optics, major vs minor, all can have an effect, positive and negative, and needs to be considered.

When 8 round was allowed there was no consideration for classifier stages that had more than 6 rounds, so there were High Hit Factors that were way off.

 

 

 

 

First off forget optics, optics has zero to do with my idea.

 

So if i am reading what you are saying correctly, if a bunch of guys showed up with currently completely legal speedloader guns and shot a bunch, that might be bad for revolver cause of classification hit factors? I dont think so. Cause that is basically what i proposed. Did you ever read what i had proposed, or are you just trying justify an untenable position? 

[RJH]

12 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Classifying higher in revolver doesn't mean it's not hard it means it's not graded on the same scale, just like limited and open and every other division.
Actually the revo HHF have been messed up for a while and the new ones have super low HHF one one of them I have a score that was averaged into the top 10 to set the HHF and I have a Mike on it, shot it again at a match Saturday with another Mike and shot 90% or so again.

Hit factor is the game anything that raises the hit factor you can shoot makes it easier anything that lowers it makes it harder. Revos seem to shoot the lowest hit factor per skill level of any division thus they are harder to shoot in our game.

I'm beating this to death because "its hard " is what I hear when trying to talk guys into it.



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I classified back in the day of 625s, but i did it with a gp100,  minor,  and speedloaders, idk if the hhfs were screwy then or not.

 

Also your   first paragraph proves my point, it is on scale based in divisions,  but you earlier brought up percentages of overall finishes, to try to justify that it was harder, which it ain't.

 

I could make the case that open or limited  is harder because you have to compete against a much larger pool of talent....

Edited March 11, 2019 by RJH

[MikeBurgess]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

I classified back in the day of 625s, but i did it with a gp100,  minor,  and speedloaders, idk if the hhfs were screwy then or not.

 

Also your   first paragraph proves my point, it is on scale based in divisions,  but you earlier brought up percentages of overall finishes, to try to justify that it was harder, which it ain't.

 

I could make the case that open or limited  is harder because you have to compete against a much larger pool of talent....

As much as we tell ourselves that we are not shooting in the overall everyone looks at how they finish in the overall results. That being the case shooters tend to gravitate towards the divisions that are easiest to shoot higher hit factors with. look at the participation numbers between Open, Co, PCC, Limited and compare them to the participation numbers for Production, L10, SS and Revo. you will see they are not even in the same ball park.

 

Production seems to be the sweet spot for shooters looking for a bigger challenge than the high cap divisions, could be because it has a critical mass of shooters making it feel competitive, could be its relatively low cost of entry, could be popular pro shooters shoot it, could be all 3 or something else but we seem to have none of the above. We have low turnout, high equipment cost, and no big names consistently competing (sorry Michael P) 

 

Lots goes into why people choose one division over another I seriously doubt any changes to the Revolver division rules, short of not requiring using a revolver, will do much if anything to raise participation in USPSA.

Look at Co for a quick example, the division was lobbied for as Production Optics and was original tried for a year as a 10 round division with almost no participation, when the mag limit was changed to 140mm how many can you fit participation grew quite rapidly. So production was good, but production with a optic did nothing,  then with the change to production with optic and all the bullets you can fit massive growth happened. 

this leads to the question what makes someone think that adding a optic to revolver division would work better than adding a optic to a production gun did?

 

 

[MikeyScuba]

From the land where it's 10 or go to jail, Production Optics is growing rapidly.  Basically the poor mans open.  I'm sure when it's recognized as a true division and no longer a trail it will be bigger than standard(limited), if it isn't already.   It isn't recognized as a division at Nationals.

 

In the Toronto/western Ontario area revo is dead.  To the east of me there is a bunch of die-hard revo shooters.  And to Swordfish's disdain the IPSC L3 out eastern Ontario way got cancelled when the MD and IPSC Ont board directors butted heads over mail in match sign-ups (which were fine in previous years). So it became a L2 with 8 revo shooters so far (still months out from match date)

Edited March 11, 2019 by MikeyScuba

[RJH]

14 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

As much as we tell ourselves that we are not shooting in the overall everyone looks at how they finish in the overall results. That being the case shooters tend to gravitate towards the divisions that are easiest to shoot higher hit factors with. look at the participation numbers between Open, Co, PCC, Limited and compare them to the participation numbers for Production, L10, SS and Revo. you will see they are not even in the same ball park.

 

Production seems to be the sweet spot for shooters looking for a bigger challenge than the high cap divisions, could be because it has a critical mass of shooters making it feel competitive, could be its relatively low cost of entry, could be popular pro shooters shoot it, could be all 3 or something else but we seem to have none of the above. We have low turnout, high equipment cost, and no big names consistently competing (sorry Michael P) 

 

Lots goes into why people choose one division over another I seriously doubt any changes to the Revolver division rules, short of not requiring using a revolver, will do much if anything to raise participation in USPSA.

Look at Co for a quick example, the division was lobbied for as Production Optics and was original tried for a year as a 10 round division with almost no participation, when the mag limit was changed to 140mm how many can you fit participation grew quite rapidly. So production was good, but production with a optic did nothing,  then with the change to production with optic and all the bullets you can fit massive growth happened. 

this leads to the question what makes someone think that adding a optic to revolver division would work better than adding a optic to a production gun did?

 

 

 

I agree with basically everything you wrote, however i never suggested revolver optics, so i don't know why that keeps coming up when someone wants to quote me, other than no one read my original proposal, oh well

[MikeBurgess]

9 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I agree with basically everything you wrote, however i never suggested revolver optics, so i don't know why that keeps coming up when someone wants to quote me, other than no one read my original proposal, oh well

sorry about that I started with a response to you then kinda kept going

 

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by MikeBurgess

[RJH]

One mans reasons for not shooting revolver, which happens to be the only locap division that interest him:

 

I don't shoot revolver in USPSA because:  NO Competition, USPSA screwed revolver when they went 8 round neutral, and USPSA further screwed everyone with a 6 round gun when they allowed 8 round guns (i know some of the people here wanted that).  I used to shoot revolver with a 6 rounder and speed loaders and while not really competitive against the 625s, it wasn't basically a paper weight.  When USPSA went to 8 rounders, the 6 round gun was no longer viable (while i do this for fun, i don't show up with the desire to lose).  So, now to have a competitive gun i have to spend 1500-2000 dollars to get a rig, and after that there is still no one to shoot against.  I don't have sour grapes over the 6 round gun screwing, although i think it hurt revolver instead of helping however, I won't be buying an 8 rounder anytime soon so i can play with myself.....

 

So there you go, a limited shooter who would like to shoot revolver, but won't and the reasons why.  And revolver is not only the only locap division that interest me, it is really the only division other than limited that interest me, and i have shot them all

[Mcfoto]

I was curious if the other low-cap division (single stack major) had this angst. Search results: yep - 

 

[MikeyScuba]

Lazy shooters.  Much easier to shoot when it’s a single reload. 8 or 10 rounds requires planning 

[J_Allen]

I actually kinda liked the strategy of managing a long field course with only 6 shots. Very unorthodox approach compared to everyone else (and that was part of the fun). For me, I just want a couple of others to compete against that have to deal with the same constraints, so I can see how I stack up. In almost all cases they are going to beat me, but at least I can see where I am falling short (looking at points vs speed).

[alecmc]

If we had the amount of engagement that we have on this thread at area matches and Nationals we wouldn't need to have this conversation. 

 

 

[Alaskan454]

9 hours ago, alecmc said:

If we had the amount of engagement that we have on this thread at area matches and Nationals we wouldn't need to have this conversation. 

 

 

Bingo

[RJH]

9 hours ago, alecmc said:

If we had the amount of engagement that we have on this thread at area matches and Nationals we wouldn't need to have this conversation. 

 

 

 

You will never get that without a serious bump at the local level

[MikeyScuba]

I've managed to get a single squad of 8 with 5 wheelguns for a L2 in June, with 5 being on the workers squad so it's 10 total so far. It would be 6 but not with open being the only option for my wife's optic'd 929.  yea yea dead horse I know.....

[Justin M]

Why not just shoot Limited or Open with a revolver? I've been shooting revolver for about a year now and it's the direction I'm going for this year.  If you want to shoot a dot, shoot Open.  If you want to shoot eight round major, shoot Open.  If you want to shoot iron sights and eight round minor or pretty much anything else, shoot Limited.  Most of the classifiers are low enough round counts to pretty much negate any benefit from the bottom feeders common in those divisions.  Not always, but a lot of the time at least. Everybody gets what it seems like they want here.  I suspect you would eventually end up with an accurate classification.  I feel the same about Single Stack.  L-10, Revolver, and SS should all just go away - and SS and Rev are just about the only thing I've ever shot.

 

Revolver won't win either of these divisions, unless a very good shooter shows up in a L1, L2, or just maybe a L3.  We had a young kid from the AMU shoot a single stack in Limited at a L2 around here a few years ago and win the division.  Of course, it's not the same, but it shows it's possible without jacking up the rules or arguing about silly s#!t or forcing the goons at HQ to do math and s#!t for the classifiers.  

 

I don't understand why people worry so much about HOA, bringing more of revolver in, etc, etc, ad nauseam.  The only benefit of USPSA over running drills in your backyard, in my simple-minded opinion, is the classification system.  I get to shoot against the truly good shooters and see where I end up.  I certainly don't do it for the prize money, the hookers, the coke, etc.  It's a bunch of middle-aged or older dudes plugging along every Sunday putting up B-class classifiers for years on end.  Christ, I'm one of them.  

 

If HQ would start promoting a Limited and Open centric game, I bet you would see a lot of folks buying into it over time.  The old timers who sat down in Columbia and brought us this game didn't do it to be fair or to simply have fun.  It was an experiment to find the best gear and techniques for the the practical application of pistols.  Revolver, Single Stack, etc (even a 10 round Production) seem to be truly not the best gear for this practical application.  Maybe they can be, but by keeping them in their own divisions, no one is learning how to make them more competitive.    

 

I know none of these opinions are popular or even all that well thought out, but I figured I'd add my two cents - since I'm one of the guys showing up at local matches every weekend with a revolver.  

 

[MWP]

22 hours ago, Alaskan454 said:

10 pages later, and I think we're still on the same conclusions.

 

1. Don't change the equipmemt rules.  

 

2. Consider revising the minimum number of competitors to recognize a division win.  I'd say 5 is reasonable for the division winner to be recognized.  I've been in tight races with only 3-4 Revos at a match.  It all depends on how good the other shooters are.

This

[MWP]

21 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Production seems to be the sweet spot for shooters looking for a bigger challenge than the high cap divisions, could be because it has a critical mass of shooters making it feel competitive, could be its relatively low cost of entry, could be popular pro shooters shoot it, could be all 3 or something else but we seem to have none of the above. We have low turnout, high equipment cost, and no big names consistently competing (sorry Michael P) 

Hey, you’re not going to see me disagreeing with that statement. 

[JAB]

I started out shooting ppc  long time ago then friends  got me to try out ipsc. Coming from ppc i only had a 6 shot so i had to shoot minor against the 625 which was  ok because I  still had a chance . After awhile i picked up a 625 and the playing field was even . Now for what ever  reason they changed it so the 8 shot revolers can play, now im back to where i started playing this game unless i go out and spend 2500 to 3000 on a new gun and rig which is not going to happen  soon, like RJH said just to be shooting by myself  or if im lucky one other rovolver guy. Now the other thing that really  burn my A$$ are guys who come out to match and shoot revolver only because they  have a chance to win a new revoler in a draw.then they go back to shooting there semi. 

[narleyskier]

I just picked up my first competition revolver and there are a few guys that shoot every Sunday with them.  Most of them seem to be veteran shooters and extremely competitive. 

I hope they don't get rid of it.  As for getting rid of L-10  that's all we can load in this lovely state.  And even the guys who shoot open, still load to 10. It is what it is, and I'm glad to be a part of it.  I try my hardest, yet I know i'm not going to change the world.  

[Mcfoto]

8 minutes ago, narleyskier said:

As for getting rid of L-10  that's all we can load in this lovely state.  And even the guys who shoot open, still load to 10. It is what it is, and I'm glad to be a part of it.  I try my hardest, yet I know i'm not going to change the world.  

 

Actually, I think the strongest contingent of revolver shooters are from 10-round states (and countries). We have enough Californians moving up our way that threaten us with that but so far we are still free.