10.5.9 sight picture and dropping hammer during LMR command

[CalTeacher]

Yeah, I see your point now loud and clear.  Chalk it up to confusion over the wording of "loaded firearm" "loading" and just having never seen anyone do that before after being given the make ready command.  Cool.  I owe you all an internet beer.

[Brooke]

This has been a very interesting topic. I have seen this load- the -magazine -and -then -dry -fire  behavior one time. My immediate thought was about legality and my second was about stupidity. It seems to me that it violates the spirit of the safety rules and needs to be clarified by NROI.

Both sides have made convincing arguments about their position based on the exact wording of the rules, neither has touched on the spirit of the rules....safety above all else. The argument that some shooters want to get the "feel" of the gun while having the weight of a loaded magazine inserted makes no sense to me. It feels just like it did the last 500 times you practiced with it. The next argument will be why the shooter shouldn't be allowed to handle and load loaded magazines in the safety area. It would accomplish the same thing.

As a newly minted RO, I don't like this practice. I believe it should be a DQ and based on the arguments presented here, I would not be without cover to call it a DQ. I'm going to submit it to NROI and the Beard for clarification and a rules change if needed. I almost never disagree with Sarge, but I do on this subject. It is not clear in the rules. 

[wtturn]

As a newly minted RO, I don't like this practice. I believe it should be a DQ and based on the arguments presented here, I would not be without cover to call it a DQ. I'm going to submit it to NROI and the Beard for clarification and a rules change if needed. I almost never disagree with Sarge, but I do on this subject. It is not clear in the rules. 

Ink still wet on RO card

Considers aloud the prospect of DQing people based upon arguments on enos and her feelings instead of the rulebook

This should go well for you IRL.

[Thomas H]

2 hours ago, Brooke said:

This has been a very interesting topic. I have seen this load- the -magazine -and -then -dry -fire  behavior one time. My immediate thought was about legality and my second was about stupidity. It seems to me that it violates the spirit of the safety rules and needs to be clarified by NROI.

Both sides have made convincing arguments about their position based on the exact wording of the rules, neither has touched on the spirit of the rules....safety above all else.

I'm curious as to what safety issues are occurring when someone points a gun at a target and dryfires.

[rooster]

Maybe this is why IPSC doesn't allow sight pictures.  I always thought the practice was stupid, because if it went bang that was a for sure DQ.  

[IHAVEGAS]

2 minutes ago, rooster said:

 I always thought the practice was stupid, because if it went bang that was a for sure DQ.  

 

 

3 hours ago, Brooke said:

My immediate thought was about legality and my second was about stupidity.

Maybe we could merge this thread with the one about flip and catch? 

 

[MikeFoley]

On September 25, 2016 at 6:06 AM, levellinebrad said:

Legal during make ready. Your original post states that the shooter loaded a magazine into the pistol and then proceeded to dry fire. It did not say that he had a finger inside the trigger guard while inserting a magazine. 

8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the 
competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the 
handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction 
authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5).

 

If the shooter had his finger inside the trigger guard, while loading, at the make ready command, it would be a dq.

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, 
reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make 
Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking 
lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

 

This is not an official ruling or post, that's Troy's to do, and he's putting Nationals on the ground in Florida.  I copied the above post because I believe it to be the end of the confusion.  It is clearly stated in the last lines that this is legal.  It is the only way to make CZ Shadows, and similar, ready.  We put our fingers on the trigger of these pistols with a live round in the chamber.  Aside from the facts, those of us who have been around for a lot of matches at every level have seen this in practice a lot.  I don't like it, I wouldn't do it, but as an RO I believe it to be within the rules and not DQ'able.  Again, I'm only a CRO, and DNROI has the final call short of a rules change, and could correct me.  

Mike

[GrumpyOne]

Thanks Mike!

[kneelingatlas]

On 9/24/2016 at 5:30 PM, CalTeacher said:

If I read 10.5.9 correctly this is only allowed if the gun has a decocking mechanism.  One shooter, however, did this with a 2011.

so what's the call? DQ for the 2011 shooter?  Any insight would be appreciated.

Two things:

1. You didn't read 10.5.9 correctly, it states "a gun without a decocking lever". A 2011 is a gun without a decocking lever, so it actually does fit into the exception so you would have to argue the shooter's finger was in the trigger guard for some other reason than to comply "with the 'Make Ready' command".

2. What is the motivation for the DQ?  Is the practice of inserting a loaded mag for weight prior to taking a sight picture creating an unsafe condition?  What are you trying to accomplish as the RO?

[CalTeacher]

1 hour ago, kneelingatlas said:

Two things:

1. You didn't read 10.5.9 correctly, it states "a gun without a decocking lever". A 2011 is a gun without a decocking lever, so it actually does fit into the exception so you would have to argue the shooter's finger was in the trigger guard for some other reason than to comply "with the 'Make Ready' command".

Oh, trust me, that wasn't the only thing I got wrong with this.  You are correct, but my main point was that there was an exemption for pistols that need to be decocked during the make ready process.

2. What is the motivation for the DQ?  Is the practice of inserting a loaded mag for weight prior to taking a sight picture creating an unsafe condition?  What are you trying to accomplish as the RO?

There's no motivation for a DQ.  I was simply seeking clarification for something that I saw for the first time.  I really didn't know that this was so common because I haven't seen anyone do this in 5 years of USPSA shooting in California.  

 

As the RO I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the rulebook so I can make more definitive calls.  That's all I'm trying to accomplish.  I don't want to have to DQ anybody.  

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, rooster said:

Maybe this is why IPSC doesn't allow sight pictures.  I always thought the practice was stupid, because if it went bang that was a for sure DQ.  

A dq yes, but not unsafe.

[blueeyedme]

60 posts on this....really??

[andrewtac]

20 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

So with this new interpretation...Let say a limited shooter fires 21 rounds, hits his reload on the move to the next position.  At the next position goes to fire and gets a click. DQ, finger on the trigger during a reload. That is the exact same situation as the OP just farther along in the shooters run.

And here is why it would be an incorrect interpretation.  The act of loading/unloading is clear in the rules as is a loaded firearm.  Limited guys would be DQ all the time, what about the guy who forgets to rack the slide prior to holstering, DQ him as well.  Or what if it was an unloaded start and the shooter forgot to rack and squeezed first, DQ?  There are many scenarios for DQ here.

 

7 hours ago, Brooke said:

This has been a very interesting topic. I have seen this load- the -magazine -and -then -dry -fire  behavior one time. My immediate thought was about legality and my second was about stupidity. It seems to me that it violates the spirit of the safety rules and needs to be clarified by NROI.

Both sides have made convincing arguments about their position based on the exact wording of the rules, neither has touched on the spirit of the rules....safety above all else. The argument that some shooters want to get the "feel" of the gun while having the weight of a loaded magazine inserted makes no sense to me. It feels just like it did the last 500 times you practiced with it. The next argument will be why the shooter shouldn't be allowed to handle and load loaded magazines in the safety area. It would accomplish the same thing.

As a newly minted RO, I don't like this practice. I believe it should be a DQ and based on the arguments presented here, I would not be without cover to call it a DQ. I'm going to submit it to NROI and the Beard for clarification and a rules change if needed. I almost never disagree with Sarge, but I do on this subject. It is not clear in the rules. 

It is not stupid to practice like you fight (or in our case play); just read the millions of post on here and numerous other firearm boards.  Why do people recommend having dummy rounds for dry fire practice; it is only for the weight.  I might find things you do as stupid and decide it is unsafe in my eyes and interpret the rules in a manner which to DQ you.  That is one of the reasons I went with USPSA and not some of the other sports; they try to leave feelings and emotion out of it.

 

As far as why you can't handle rounds or even dummy rounds in the safety area, it is for the same reason you can take a sight picture with a magazine in the firearms and pull the trigger; the rules state that.  Again, no need to argue feelings or emotions when the rules state it.

 

I tried to DQ a guy at Area 8 last year when he was unloading.  I gave the in finished unload show clear.  He racked the slide and proceed to drop the hammer before I got out the if clear hammer down; he had left the magazine in.  I saw the mag in and that is why I paused; I thought for sure he saw it and would pull it out and rack again; he beat me to the trigger.  He was clearly unloading, and had full intent of unloading, and was dropping the hammer in anticipation of my statement if clear hammer down.  Because he wasn't physically unloading at the time he pulled the trigger and I hadn't said if clear hammer down; he got away with it.  I felt like it was extremely unsafe; the round was in the dirt (but not close enough for a DQ); the shooter had no idea there was a round in the chamber and was clearly trying to clear the gun.  I still don't agree with what happened, but the rules are the rules.  I thought about writing for a change; but the only thing that could be added would be something along the lines of intent.  He intended to unloaded and intended to have an empty chamber.  The problem is the area becomes very gray with intent.  I couldn't think of a good change to the rules that would not involve intent.

Edited September 27, 2016 by andrewtac
addition

[Sarge]

9 hours ago, Brooke said:

This has been a very interesting topic. I have seen this load- the -magazine -and -then -dry -fire  behavior one time. My immediate thought was about legality and my second was about stupidity. It seems to me that it violates the spirit of the safety rules and needs to be clarified by NROI.

Both sides have made convincing arguments about their position based on the exact wording of the rules, neither has touched on the spirit of the rules....safety above all else. The argument that some shooters want to get the "feel" of the gun while having the weight of a loaded magazine inserted makes no sense to me. It feels just like it did the last 500 times you practiced with it. The next argument will be why the shooter shouldn't be allowed to handle and load loaded magazines in the safety area. It would accomplish the same thing.

As a newly minted RO, I don't like this practice. I believe it should be a DQ and based on the arguments presented here, I would not be without cover to call it a DQ. I'm going to submit it to NROI and the Beard for clarification and a rules change if needed. I almost never disagree with Sarge, but I do on this subject. It is not clear in the rules. 

"Spirit " is right next to "intent" in the rule book glossary.

If you are dry firing without a weighted mag you are doing it wrong. Most everybody has a mag of dummies for dry fire .

 It sounds like there are a few inquiries in to Troy. Please let us know what he has to say.

[rooster]

In the safe area you can practice reloads with empty mags, you can draw and dry fire.  You can't handle ammo.  The course of fire is not over until range is clear command given.  I've had shooters that after the if you are finished unload and show clear look at the target just shot even after dropping the mag realize the miss and make it up.  No DQ just start the command process all over.

[Sarge]

37 minutes ago, rooster said:

In the safe area you can practice reloads with empty mags, you can draw and dry fire.  You can't handle ammo.  The course of fire is not over until range is clear command given.  I've had shooters that after the if you are finished unload and show clear look at the target just shot even after dropping the mag realize the miss and make it up.  No DQ just start the command process all over.

The point was the shooter beat the RO TO if clear hammer down and holster. The rules prohibit firing after that command and it's before range is clear.

[Racinready300ex]

3 hours ago, andrewtac said:

And here is why it would be an incorrect interpretation.  The act of loading/unloading is clear in the rules as is a loaded firearm.  Limited guys would be DQ all the time, what about the guy who forgets to rack the slide prior to holstering, DQ him as well.  Or what if it was an unloaded start and the shooter forgot to rack and squeezed first, DQ?  There are many scenarios for DQ here.

 

That was my point.

[andrewtac]

3 hours ago, rooster said:

In the safe area you can practice reloads with empty mags, you can draw and dry fire.  You can't handle ammo.  The course of fire is not over until range is clear command given.  I've had shooters that after the if you are finished unload and show clear look at the target just shot even after dropping the mag realize the miss and make it up.  No DQ just start the command process all over.

Sarge is correct, he beat me to the if clear hammer down; the dude thought he was unloaded and preparing to holster.  I realize you can shoot after if finish..., as it is an if finish...I have done it.  This guy clearly thought he was unloading, and putting the hammer down to holster; the entire bay (all his friends) thought it as well.  Again, he was within the rules; I along with the guys helping me run the stage felt as if he was unsafe (and I think most folks would probably think pulling the trigger on a loaded round and thinking the gun is unloaded is unsafe or at minimum careless).  But my feeling and the other ROs didn't matter; rules were rules. My point with this was a correlation to the topic, I felt the guy was unsafe and was able to "interpret" the rules differently but it was based on feeling and intent and not black and white.  I feel for the rule makers, it is next to impossible to cover it all.  This event almost convinced me to never RO again; but I realized after a while where I was mistaken.

[motosapiens]

30 minutes ago, andrewtac said:

Sarge is correct, he beat me to the if clear hammer down; the dude thought he was unloaded and preparing to holster.  I realize you can shoot after if finish..., as it is an if finish...I have done it.  This guy clearly thought he was unloading, and putting the hammer down to holster; the entire bay (all his friends) thought it as well.  Again, he was within the rules

Are you sure? Did you bring that up with the rangemaster? I think pending further discussion, I would lean towards dq for what you describe. Yes, you hadn't gotten to point in the command sequence where it's prohibited to fire, but it seems to me if he wasn't aiming at a target then he had an AD in the process of unloading. I'm pretty sure I would dq myself for that. I would be very curious what an experienced RM would say.

here is the definition of 'unloading'

"Unloading ....................... The removal of ammunition from a firearm. This action is completed when the firearm is empty of all ammunition and the magazine removed or cylinder opened and shown for inspection by a Range Officer."

so he started unloading didn't complete unloading, and fired a shot during that process........

[andrewtac]

29 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Are you sure? Did you bring that up with the rangemaster? I think pending further discussion, I would lean towards dq for what you describe. Yes, you hadn't gotten to point in the command sequence where it's prohibited to fire, but it seems to me if he wasn't aiming at a target then he had an AD in the process of unloading. I'm pretty sure I would dq myself for that. I would be very curious what an experienced RM would say.

here is the definition of 'unloading'

"Unloading ....................... The removal of ammunition from a firearm. This action is completed when the firearm is empty of all ammunition and the magazine removed or cylinder opened and shown for inspection by a Range Officer."

so he started unloading didn't complete unloading, and fired a shot during that process........

Yes I and everyone in the bay said DQ, even the shooter thought he DQed.  The RM pointed out that we do not know if he was unloading or if he was taking another shot.  The RMs point was we can't DQ based on what we think he was doing.  Only what the rules state, and he was in the clear.  Once he heard the RMs explanation and realized he was OK that was it.  We all know he was unloading, it scared all of us, me, him, his friends, the other ROs.  It was an AD, but not an AD as defined by the rule book.  "10.4.1  A  shot,  which  travels  over  a  backstop,  a  berm  or  in  any  other  direction, specified  in  the  written  stage  briefing  by  the  match  organizers  as  being unsafe.  Note  that a  competitor  who  legitimately  fires  a  shot at a  target, which  then  travels  in  an  unsafe  direction,  will  not be  disqualified  (the provisions  of  Section  2.3  may  apply). 10.4.2  A  shot  which  strikes  the  ground  within  10  feet  of  the competitor,  except when  shooting  at  a paper  target  closer  than  10  feet".  I think it was about 13 feet if I remember correctly.  On addition to the RM there was a senior USPSA staff member there that said the RM is correct.  I suspect had the shooter said he was unloading the ruling would be different, but he was smart and kept his mouth shut.  He never admitted to unloading, just stayed quiet.  I couldn't DQ him based on what I thought he was doing or a feeling, hell yeah it felt unsafe.

Edited September 28, 2016 by andrewtac
addition

[Gary Stevens]

42 minutes ago, andrewtac said:

Yes I and everyone in the bay said DQ, even the shooter thought he DQed.  The RM pointed out that we do not know if he was unloading or if he was taking another shot.  The RMs point was we can't DQ based on what we think he was doing.  Only what the rules state, and he was in the clear.  Once he heard the RMs explanation and realized he was OK that was it.  We all know he was unloading, it scared all of us, me, him, his friends, the other ROs.  It was an AD, but not an AD as defined by the rule book.  "10.4.1  A  shot,  which  travels  over  a  backstop,  a  berm  or  in  any  other  direction, specified  in  the  written  stage  briefing  by  the  match  organizers  as  being unsafe.  Note  that a  competitor  who  legitimately  fires  a  shot at a  target, which  then  travels  in  an  unsafe  direction,  will  not be  disqualified  (the provisions  of  Section  2.3  may  apply). 10.4.2  A  shot  which  strikes  the  ground  within  10  feet  of  the competitor,  except when  shooting  at  a paper  target  closer  than  10  feet".  I think it was about 13 feet if I remember correctly.  On addition to the RM there was a senior USPSA staff member there that said the RM is correct.  I suspect had the shooter said he was unloading the ruling would be different, but he was smart and kept his mouth shut.  He never admitted to unloading, just stayed quiet.  I couldn't DQ him based on what I thought he was doing or a feeling, hell yeah it felt unsafe.

Yep, I was the RM. The RO was 100 percent correct in what happened. However, it did not fit within the rules IMO. It was a tough call for me, but I am comfortable with it. Words mean things and I try to read them as written.

[Flatland Shooter]

20 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

Yep, I was the RM. The RO was 100 percent correct in what happened. However, it did not fit within the rules IMO. It was a tough call for me, but I am comfortable with it. Words mean things and I try to read them as written.

Though not really important to the topic, the competitor's stage time did include that last shot, right?

[Gary Stevens]

4 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

Though not really important to the topic, the competitor's stage time did include that last shot, right?

As I remember it, yes. 

[andrewtac]

It did include the last shot.  Sorry to derail the thread, the intent was to give an example that many could feel something was unsafe but within the rules.  Thanks Gary for all you do for the sport, wouldn't be the same without you and the others that put in the time.

[Gary Stevens]

21 minutes ago, andrewtac said:

It did include the last shot.  Sorry to derail the thread, the intent was to give an example that many could feel something was unsafe but within the rules.  Thanks Gary for all you do for the sport, wouldn't be the same without you and the others that put in the time.

Thanks to you my friend.