10.5.9 sight picture and dropping hammer during LMR command

[Nghthwk1911]

+1 Gary.

 

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, andrewtac said:

Yes I and everyone in the bay said DQ, even the shooter thought he DQed.  The RM pointed out that we do not know if he was unloading or if he was taking another shot.  The RMs point was we can't DQ based on what we think he was doing.  Only what the rules state, and he was in the clear.  

That sort of makes sense, and I was wondering the same thing, since it is not unusual for a shooter to take a last make-up shot after ULSC. OTOH, I have never seen that done *after* the round was racked out of the chamber already, so it seems a bit different to me. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Jmob50]

Definitely not a good practice but no DQ

[Brooke]

So the moral of this story is, rush though the ULSC and Hammer Down commands so if you accidentally fire a shot it will precede the RO's chance to give the last (Hammer Down) command. Then you will be just fine because you ignored the "show clear" part of it and had an accidental discharge which everybody on earth knows is accidental.

That may be a valid interpretation of the rules as they are currently written. If so, the rules need to be changed. I seriously doubt the writers of the rules intended this to be the case. The way around this for an RO is to insist in advance that every shooter will pause at ULSC to give the RO a chance to perform his responsible visible inspection of a clear chamber and removed magazine and tell all shooters that they are not to go to "hammer down" until directed to do so. After all, the rules also say that the gun cannot be handled (outside a safety area) except under the control of an RO. So, if the shooter anticipates the "Hammer down" command he is no longer under the control of the RO.

Gary's interpretation is thoughtful and I respect that interpretation, but it highlights a problem with the shooter going off on his own and encourages everybody to do the same thing to gain an advantage by avoiding the penalty for brain fart.

[MHitchcock]

I would have started packing up if I did that. Wonder how that would have played out at a sectional match...

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, Brooke said:

So the moral of this story is, rush though the ULSC and Hammer Down commands so if you accidentally fire a shot it will precede the RO's chance to give the last (Hammer Down) command. Then you will be just fine because you ignored the "show clear" part of it and had an accidental discharge which everybody on earth knows is accidental.

That may be a valid interpretation of the rules as they are currently written. If so, the rules need to be changed. I seriously doubt the writers of the rules intended this to be the case. The way around this for an RO is to insist in advance that every shooter will pause at ULSC to give the RO a chance to perform his responsible visible inspection of a clear chamber and removed magazine and tell all shooters that they are not to go to "hammer down" until directed to do so. After all, the rules also say that the gun cannot be handled (outside a safety area) except under the control of an RO. So, if the shooter anticipates the "Hammer down" command he is no longer under the control of the RO.

Gary's interpretation is thoughtful and I respect that interpretation, but it highlights a problem with the shooter going off on his own and encourages everybody to do the same thing to gain an advantage by avoiding the penalty for brain fart.

Wow, that's just crazy talk. The rules are just fine and quite clear. What next, RO's telling shooters to only drink water with lunch and not Mountain Dew?!?

 RO's are not baby sitters. 

[Gary Stevens]

While the shooter dodged the DQ bullet due to his brain malfunction, he did add time to his stage score.

 We often talk about not caring about the stage designers intent, only what the rulebook allows.

That cuts two ways. We cannot take the shooters intent into consideration, only what the rulebook allows.

[Poppa Bear]

I have seen a number of shooters take an extra shot after the IYAFUASC.  Even as they are performing the actions they are looking at targets and have seen an A/M or a piece of steel that is still up.  It adds more time than it is worth, and in many of those cases they said "I should have left it but when I saw it.  I instinctively took the shot".  

Have some people skated on a DQ because of how the rules are written?  Yes.  

Have some used the rules to take that last second shot because it is allowed before ICHDH.  Yes.

 

[Nik Habicht]

16 hours ago, Brooke said:

So the moral of this story is, rush though the ULSC and Hammer Down commands so if you accidentally fire a shot it will precede the RO's chance to give the last (Hammer Down) command. Then you will be just fine because you ignored the "show clear" part of it and had an accidental discharge which everybody on earth knows is accidental.

That may be a valid interpretation of the rules as they are currently written. If so, the rules need to be changed. I seriously doubt the writers of the rules intended this to be the case. The way around this for an RO is to insist in advance that every shooter will pause at ULSC to give the RO a chance to perform his responsible visible inspection of a clear chamber and removed magazine and tell all shooters that they are not to go to "hammer down" until directed to do so. After all, the rules also say that the gun cannot be handled (outside a safety area) except under the control of an RO. So, if the shooter anticipates the "Hammer down" command he is no longer under the control of the RO.

Gary's interpretation is thoughtful and I respect that interpretation, but it highlights a problem with the shooter going off on his own and encourages everybody to do the same thing to gain an advantage by avoiding the penalty for brain fart.

Well, yes -- but here's the alternative: If you tell me "Unload and Show Clear" and the expectation is that I'm not allowed to fire after that point, I'll be able to get a reshoot all day long.  The alternative leaves us with a competitive equity problem.

Sure -- someone can rush the procedure, and have an unplanned shot break.  But -- we do have other rules that would come into play at that point: Was the competitor still unloading the gun, with a finger on the trigger?  Where did the round hit -- ground within ten feet, or over the berm or other unsafe direction?  Where was the muzzle pointed?  If the shooter fires at that point, and the round safely impacts the back berm, or passes through a target on the way to a berm -- is it really different from a round that was fired earlier in the stage?

 

[andrewtac]

16 hours ago, Brooke said:

So the moral of this story is, rush though the ULSC and Hammer Down commands so if you accidentally fire a shot it will precede the RO's chance to give the last (Hammer Down) command. Then you will be just fine because you ignored the "show clear" part of it and had an accidental discharge which everybody on earth knows is accidental.

That may be a valid interpretation of the rules as they are currently written. If so, the rules need to be changed. I seriously doubt the writers of the rules intended this to be the case.

Gary's interpretation is thoughtful and I respect that interpretation, but it highlights a problem with the shooter going off on his own and encourages everybody to do the same thing to gain an advantage by avoiding the penalty for brain fart.

I think the moral of the story is the rules are the rules.  I think uspsa tries real hard to leave gray area and interpretation of the rules out of our sport. I know there are some areas (like how many procedurals; which I wish they'd just change to one per shot period to not allow interpretation).  I too was very upset by this, might have even messed up a good friendship over it.  I was exactly where you are, the rules must be changed because surely they did not intend for this to happen.  I know everyone there(to include the shooter), even probably Gary and the other RM believed the guy was unsafe and deserved a DQ.  But, the rules are the rules and while some folks like to interpret what they think they mean, words mean things.  Don't interpret because you feel it was wrong, read the rules.  This was the reason I brought this up in this thread, while not the same the theme is very similar.  People felt something was unsafe, and wanted to interpret the rules rather than take them at face value.  I thought long and hard on what I was going to submit for a rule change but couldn't get around not having to interpret what I thought the shooter was doing or restrict other normal activities (like shooting after If finished when you see targets).  If you can think of a black and white way to fix it, submit it.  I know Gary, and all other RMs would much rather have to make an easy call to DQ someone for doing something unsafe than have to  make a tough call (not saying they like to DQ, just that easier calls are favored over hard ones).  I would be happy as if it happened again I'd have an answer.  Look at all the emotion it brought up here, imagine what it was like on the range that day. 

[andrewtac]

2 minutes ago, Nik Habicht said:

Sure -- someone can rush the procedure, and have an unplanned shot break.  But -- we do have other rules that would come into play at that point: Was the competitor still unloading the gun, with a finger on the trigger?  Where did the round hit -- ground within ten feet, or over the berm or other unsafe direction?  Where was the muzzle pointed?  If the shooter fires at that point, and the round safely impacts the back berm, or passes through a target on the way to a berm -- is it really different from a round that was fired earlier in the stage?

 

I believe the shot impacted 13 feet ahead of us, so didn't break that rule.

He was not on the slide nor the mag when he pulled the trigger, also during the perceived unloading no finger on the trigger.

You are correct in it was like any other shot at that point.  Even if he did say he was "unloading" at the time (didn't kept his mouth shut, I still don't think this was malicious, I think he was busy trying to remember if he had any clean underwear) he could have probably protested it and gotten it overturned as ultimately it was like any other shot during the COF at that time.  I think it was Virginia count, so he got additional time and an extra shot, not 100% on that.

[wtturn]

So the moral of this story is, rush though the ULSC and Hammer Down commands so if you accidentally fire a shot it will precede the RO's chance to give the last (Hammer Down) command. Then you will be just fine because you ignored the "show clear" part of it and had an accidental discharge which everybody on earth knows is accidental.

That may be a valid interpretation of the rules as they are currently written. If so, the rules need to be changed. I seriously doubt the writers of the rules intended this to be the case. The way around this for an RO is to insist in advance that every shooter will pause at ULSC to give the RO a chance to perform his responsible visible inspection of a clear chamber and removed magazine and tell all shooters that they are not to go to "hammer down" until directed to do so. After all, the rules also say that the gun cannot be handled (outside a safety area) except under the control of an RO. So, if the shooter anticipates the "Hammer down" command he is no longer under the control of the RO.

Gary's interpretation is thoughtful and I respect that interpretation, but it highlights a problem with the shooter going off on his own and encourages everybody to do the same thing to gain an advantage by avoiding the penalty for brain fart.

We need an "eye roll" emoji.



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[Sarge]

2 hours ago, wtturn said:

 

We need an "eye roll" emoji.



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?

[gmantwo]

On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 0:12 PM, CalTeacher said:

I don't think this is a tortured explanation.  How can an RO tell if a magazine has not been seated fully, or if the magazine was dislodged by inadvertently touching the mag release?  

If you inserted a magazine during a slidelock reload and placed your finger in the trigger before releasing the slide would you be DQ'd?  Maybe.  Could you argue that you were pausing the reloading procedure?  I don't know.

The definition of loading doesn't specify that there are different steps with pauses between during the loading procedure.  It only states when it starts and when it is considered complete.

 I also understand that many people have seen this done commonly and they don't see an issue with it, but I've seen a lot of things done commonly that aren't in accordance with USPSA rules.  I'll see if I can get a ruling from NROI on this and if I'm wrong then great, I learned something and I have a better understanding of something that will help me be a more effective RO.

Yes, if you shoot to slide lock, reload and drop the slide with your finger in the trigger, even while aiming at targets, you will be DQ'd. At least I was at Area 5 several years ago. The old language said if you move the gun away from "pointing toward targets" that is a DQ, the new version is "aiming at targets". Who is to say if you are aiming

[gmantwo]

At the Mo Fall Classic this month, a guy who apparently usually does just what the OP is questioning, moved to the middle distance on the Standards course, where we were staying hot between positions, and proceded to fire a shot while doing so. OOps! Not a good habit, me thinks

[gmantwo]

The ULSC command is followed by "IF CLEAR, hammer down" for a reason. It is ultimately the shooters responsibility to make certain the chamber is clear, and NOT the RO's fault if it is not

[wtturn]

Did anyone ever actually email DNROI on this topic for clarification and receive a response?

Yesterday had a cro pull me to the side after a stage and tell me it was a dq-able offense to load a mag and do mock trigger presses during my make ready. (Glock, if it matters). Seeking a definitive answer on this so I can either delete it from my make ready practices or have an email from Troy handy if the issue arises again.

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[MAC702]

I read a bit of the first couple pages of this thread and have this thought regarding the Appendix A3 definitions of "loaded firearm" and "[re]loading."  A firearm being "ready to fire" means that it is in battery and ready for a trigger press to drop the hammer.  It does not require a round in the chamber.  If the chamber is loaded, you hopefully get a bang and a bullet downrange.  If it is not, you get a dry-fire.

 

Otherwise we'd have to DQ a shooter during a course of fire who flustered his reload and got a new magazine in the gun but an empty chamber and then dry-fires at a target.

 

With this in mind there is no conflict in the two definitions, and no DQ (or any counsel at all) for the practice being done during "Make Ready."  If you want to counsel a shooter to do things your way because of "good practice," the time to do so is after the stage or match; and you need to be fully prepared for him to disagree with you and continue to do it his way after thinking about your advice.

Edited April 9, 2017 by MAC702

[Sarge]

19 minutes ago, wtturn said:

Did anyone ever actually email DNROI on this topic for clarification and receive a response?

Yesterday had a cro pull me to the side after a stage and tell me it was a dq-able offense to load a mag and do mock trigger presses during my make ready. (Glock, if it matters). Seeking a definitive answer on this so I can either delete it from my make ready practices or have an email from Troy handy if the issue arises again.

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That CRO is an embarrassment to the RO corps. There is NOTHING illegal about that. If you would have asked him to cite a rule he would still be looking for it.

  No need to bother Troy with something so obvious

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, wtturn said:

Did anyone ever actually email DNROI on this topic for clarification and receive a response?

Yesterday had a cro pull me to the side after a stage and tell me it was a dq-able offense to load a mag and do mock trigger presses during my make ready. (Glock, if it matters). Seeking a definitive answer on this so I can either delete it from my make ready practices or have an email from Troy handy if the issue arises again.

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this has nothing to do with original topic, but that RO was just plain wrong. Uspsa has no rule against sight pictures or mock trigger presses with a loaded gun. I have seen many people insert a mag and do draws and real trigger presses (with hammer drop), and then finally rack the slide and get in the ready position. Perfectly legal, unless the gun goes off.

[Dr Mitch]

1 hour ago, wtturn said:

Did anyone ever actually email DNROI on this topic for clarification and receive a response?

Yesterday had a cro pull me to the side after a stage and tell me it was a dq-able offense to load a mag and do mock trigger presses during my make ready. (Glock, if it matters). Seeking a definitive answer on this so I can either delete it from my make ready practices or have an email from Troy handy if the issue arises again.

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You were lied to.

[wtturn]

That CRO is an embarrassment to the RO corps. There is NOTHING illegal about that. If you would have asked him to cite a rule he would still be looking for it.
  No need to bother Troy with something so obvious

The rule he cited informally to me was that I had my finger on the trigger of a loaded firearm and my gun was not covered by the exception granted to the type of gun that must be manually decocked.

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[MAC702]

26 minutes ago, wtturn said:

 

The rule he cited informally to me was that I had my finger on the trigger of a loaded firearm and my gun was not covered by the exception granted to the type of gun that must be manually decocked.

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Here's the citation, I'm assuming:

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the "Make Ready" command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

[teros135]

1 hour ago, MAC702 said:

Here's the citation, I'm assuming:

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the "Make Ready" command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

 

Well, it seems he wasn't doing any of those.  He had loaded the mag and was doing sight pictures.  Yeah, we can talk about how he wasn't completely done with the loading process, but he was going to resume that after the sight picture/dry firing.  

 

(Not my own preference, BTW, but it doesn't seem out of line per the rules.)

[wtturn]

So from my point of view the issue really hinges on whether the loading process can be "paused" in between inserting mag and racking round into chamber. I think the intent of the rule is clear, which is: don't have finger in trigger guard during the specific acts of inserting mag or racking slide. That's the everyday, commonsense interpretation. The problem is that the official definition contradicts the common sense definition.

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