32 round stages

[Mhall]

What is your opinion of a club match having ALL 32 round stages?

I feel like it is a bit lazy. Some of the most interesting stages I've shot have not been 32 rounders.

I know we all like to shoot our guns, that's why we go to a shooting competition... but I feel like match directors should get a bit more creative.

Before you get on my case, I HAVE designed stages and I also don't mind 32 rounders for, say, even half of the stages.

I'm also not suggesting we go to the IPSC formula for stages either. Just looking for discussion.

And for the record, I shoot limited and soon open, so the feeling doesn't come from the necessity to reload all the time.

discuss....

[Nik Habicht]

I don't judge the quality of a stage by its round count.....

Is it safe? Is it fun? Does it challenge my shooting? Does it challenge my skill set? Are there options in position or target engagement order? Do those option have tradeoffs, i.e. I can take a harder shot at this target from here, and those from there, and it'll let me eliminate a position versus just charging through each position? Are there interesting and challenging individual positions with options for engaging on the way in, or while working your way out?

Say yes to most of that list and I don't care if it's a 16 round or 32 round stage.....

Heck, set up the occasional 8 round stage that's challenging and I'm there. Think four poppers -- and two of them activate differently or identically timed movers -- that gets to be a challenge, in the sense of "can you shoot all the steel and then get the paper before the out and back and the Maxtrap only leave you with upper A/B zones?

[MarkCO]

To me, stages come down to the stage designer. 6, 12, 24 or 32 rounds a good stage is a good stage. I am more concerned about HF. I think a good balance in a match has some 3, 6, 9 and 12 HF stages for the top shooters. That usually means the designs are testing balance speed and accuracy. 5 stages of 6 HF is a boring match in most cases.

[Mhall]

To me, stages come down to the stage designer. 6, 12, 24 or 32 rounds a good stage is a good stage. I am more concerned about HF. I think a good balance in a match has some 3, 6, 9 and 12 HF stages for the top shooters. That usually means the designs are testing balance speed and accuracy. 5 stages of 6 HF is a boring match in most cases.

I don't judge the quality of a stage by its round count.....

Is it safe? Is it fun? Does it challenge my shooting? Does it challenge my skill set? Are there options in position or target engagement order? Do those option have tradeoffs, i.e. I can take a harder shot at this target from here, and those from there, and it'll let me eliminate a position versus just charging through each position? Are there interesting and challenging individual positions with options for engaging on the way in, or while working your way out?

Say yes to most of that list and I don't care if it's a 16 round or 32 round stage.....

Heck, set up the occasional 8 round stage that's challenging and I'm there. Think four poppers -- and two of them activate differently or identically timed movers -- that gets to be a challenge, in the sense of "can you shoot all the steel and then get the paper before the out and back and the Maxtrap only leave you with upper A/B zones?

I agree with both of you on this.

Why do you think MDs get it in their mind that 32 is better?

[herky]

I don't mind lots of 32 round stages (I shoot SS for the most part these days), what I don't care for is 8-8-8-8 over and over. Mix it up, put some thought into the design and it can work well. I am with Nik and his thoughts on this.

[kcd19]

I don't judge the quality of a stage by its round count.....

Is it safe? Is it fun? Does it challenge my shooting? Does it challenge my skill set? Are there options in position or target engagement order? Do those option have tradeoffs, i.e. I can take a harder shot at this target from here, and those from there, and it'll let me eliminate a position versus just charging through each position? Are there interesting and challenging individual positions with options for engaging on the way in, or while working your way out?

agree with most of what's been said in the thread, but this especially. i strive for designing interesting stages and REALLY enjoy when people tell me that no two people on their squad shot it the same way. formulaic stages are, well, formulaic. and that, to me, is boring. so yeah, if you can put a twist on 6-10 round stages and make it challenging, go for it. if a 32 round stage is challenging, go for that, too.

to the point of 32 round stages across the board - i feel like some people just like blasting through rounds or that there is a perception of more is better. i don't mind high round counts, but when the stages are very procedural or predictable, i don't feel like there is much return on the higher round count. it becomes a reloading contest. i think there should a be point to the stage, or an problem that can be solved, or an optimization of the solution - whether that's movement, optimizing for reloads, etc.

[Trent1k1]

To keep the match flowing, it is tough to have a 8 round stage, and have the next stage be 32 rounds as there will always be a backup of a squad waiting.

I've seen very fast 32 round stages, and very slow 8 round stages (with reset), so they can be mixed up.

I prefer to have challenges, and watch people scratching their heads trying to figure out how they will shoot my stages. Doesn't matter if 8 or 32 rounds.

[Edge40]

As long as its fun I don't care how many rounds it is. I love shooting either way.

[Sarge]

While I agree with many comments here I do notice the best attended matches local to me have high round counts. I think this is a thing here because many shooters only shoot one match a month with regularity and they like to get their money's worth so to speak. If I only shot one match a month I would go to the one with high round count. Once we become veteran shooters then good stages with lots s of options are what we look for, but some 32 rounders thrown in are icing on the cake.

A local match REALLY needs to earn a reputation as as a great match to get away with round counts in the 90's. Sure us dedicated weekly shooters will probably still go but if time or money bacame an issue it would get skipped first on my schedule.

The same can be said for larger matches. A level II match these days needs a round count of 300 to draw the most attention

Edited June 19, 2016 by Sarge

[EEH]

I shot one yesterday with 148 rounds with 56 pcs. of steel.

of which one stage had two plate racks,that you could only see 3 plates from one view,and from one view at about 18 yards the other 3

One Texas star..The best part About 3 of the six stages could be shot a little different.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I LOVE 32-round stages ...

I HATE 16 round stages.

I'm gone from home 6-7 hours, to shoot for 10 minutes ....

I really prefer to shoot 11 minutes (10% more shooting).

[StealthyBlagga]

Why do you think MDs get it in their mind that 32 is better?

The same reason 3-gunners here complain when a match does not have what they perceive to be an "adequate" round count. I think it is an American thing - the preference for quantity over quality was something that really struck me the very first time I visited the US from Europe. It still boggles my mind.

[Dr Mitch]

Boring, unless stage design is top notch and there are enough props to pull it off for 5-8 stages.

Consistently the best matches, being the most fun, mix longer and shorter course designs. The most fun match in Oklahoma is in middle-of-nowhere Ponca City where each bay has a 29-32 round field course, followed by a short or medium course that is part of the same stage. It is designed such that with little or no modification, two stages are within one bay and using the same props and layout. Sometimes the stage is cut in half, sometimes specific targets are called out for the shorter course, sometimes fault lines are shuffled or added, sometimes barrels and walls are moved a bit. The stage designers have to come up with really a pretty good stage that has a shorter stage built into/hidden within it. Genius. It really is excellent, and means that you cut half of the travel between bays out of the match. Genius.

[rowdyb]

Quite a few people equate round count with a successful day at the range. If they're going to take a Saturday off away from home these types better shoot 200+ rounds at their local match or it's "not worth it."

Match flow is important. Pile ups, squad jumping and such are a source of annoyance.

Personally, I don't care about round count, I'd go to a 60 round uspsa match, but there dang well better be some variety in the shooting challenges presented to me. Then all is well.

Increased rounds is not increased value.

[ctay]

I would say that the majority of the stages I use are over 28 rounds. Couple of reasons why:

1) I find it easier to make options within the stage on bigger stages. Others with more skill may not have the same challenge.

2) More rounds generally mean more fun.

3) I like to shoot.

[davsco]

there is a local club that does a high round count match annually, and on some stages they just say 3 rounds per target to boost that round count. that really doesn't do anything for me, i like transitioning between targets and lots of movement. but i sure as heck don't want to drive an hour each way to shoot just a box of ammo or even two no matter how challenging it is. high round count + lots of movement + challenging shots = fun & exciting for me.

[DagoRed]

I actually prefer good stages in the 24-25 round count area, they're quick but enough shooting you usually need some planning. Lots of rounds, ie32, unless there's lots of steel, sometimes feels like that's all it is, lots of rounds. Admittedly I'm SS and don't enjoy stages that are gonna be putting me into slide lock all the time.

I also enjoy stages with weak hand shooting, I could handle more of that. We shot a fun one once where in addition to regular metric there were three different color coded sets of targets, you start hands behind back and theRO places a paint cap in your hand. At buzzer you get to see your color and shoot accordingly. That was a lot of fun. Maybe 24 rounds total but needed to concentrate, and no real chance to plan

Red

[LeviSS]

I just started shooting uspsa and only have 3 matched under my belt. The local club does 32 round stages almost exclusively...the classifiers have been the only stages I've shot with less than 28 rounds.

I know one thing...it makes it difficult for someone just starting out shooting production to wrap your head around everything on big stages. I wish they'd mix it up with some short/medium courses.

[jrswanson1]

Somebody needs to give the PCC guys a challenge.

[ShortBus]

Not to get too off topic, but that is why I try to tell every new shooter to start in limited no matter the caliber. Load your mags up, work on being safe and having fun and after you get used to it decide what you want to do.

[ctay]

Not to get too off topic, but that is why I try to tell every new shooter to start in limited no matter the caliber. Load your mags up, work on being safe and having fun and after you get used to it decide what you want to do.

+1 great advice

[Trent1k1]

Great advice. We do the same thing the first couple times they shoot.

Then, tell them to pick Production or Single Stack for a year to learn how to really play this game. Stage breadowns, reloads, all the basic gun handling skills. If they do that for at least 6 months before buying an Edge or Open gun, they seem to advance a whole lot quicker as they understand the game.

[blaster113]

An occasional 32 rounder is fun. Not as much fun compared to the mainland where you can use hi-cap mags. Seems like the majors I've been to the last few years have all had high round counts. I personally like to mix it up a little as a MD with short little burners and medium courses mixed in with a 32 rounders.

[Flexmoney]

I'm gone from home 6-7 hours, to shoot for 10 minutes ....

I really prefer to shoot 11 minutes (10% more shooting).

[Distant Thunder]

A friend and I got into a discussion on round count and pretty much agreed we'd like to see stages where those of us who are inclined towards the Single Stack division would need to do a couple of mag changes (18 - 24 rounds). Of course, the challenge of a stage in its versatility across all divisions is the real test for stage designers. God bless 'em all.